1
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,074
Watch Online Movies and Series for FREE
www.osdb.link/lm

2
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I know that the story is that...

3
00:00:19,439 --> 00:00:21,539
the people who bought
the plot for them

4
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had to lie and say
it was for somebody else...

5
00:00:28,432 --> 00:00:31,332
So from the beginning nobody even
wanted their dead bodies.

6
00:00:34,466 --> 00:00:36,066
Those are my grandparents.

7
00:01:05,149 --> 00:01:06,530
Sorry... Hello.

8
00:01:07,177 --> 00:01:09,877
I'm looking for
a particular grave.

9
00:01:10,235 --> 00:01:11,635
Can you give me a map?

10
00:01:11,655 --> 00:01:12,655
<i>What's the name?</i>

11
00:01:12,675 --> 00:01:13,675
It's Rosenberg.

12
00:01:14,602 --> 00:01:17,052
Ethel and Julius Rosenberg.

13
00:01:17,376 --> 00:01:18,376
No.

14
00:01:19,292 --> 00:01:21,442
You can't do that location?

15
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I mean, this is...
this is my family.

16
00:01:58,050 --> 00:02:02,750
Dateline, Sing Sing.
June 19th, 1953.

17
00:02:03,473 --> 00:02:06,473
Someone had passed America's
atomic bomb secrets to Russia.

18
00:02:06,492 --> 00:02:09,342
This was an undisputed fact
that the whole world knew.

19
00:02:09,428 --> 00:02:11,428
The federal government
had laid the crime

20
00:02:11,448 --> 00:02:13,498
at the doorstep of
two native new yorkers,

21
00:02:13,532 --> 00:02:14,882
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg,

22
00:02:15,043 --> 00:02:16,693
but to the end
they both protested

23
00:02:16,713 --> 00:02:18,180
their innocence of the theft.

24
00:02:18,204 --> 00:02:21,303
In April of 1951,
the federal court

25
00:02:21,372 --> 00:02:24,574
of judge Irving R. Kaufman found
the pair guilty as charged,

26
00:02:24,643 --> 00:02:26,220
and sentenced them to death
in the electric chair

27
00:02:26,244 --> 00:02:28,948
to pay for their
crime of treason.

28
00:02:57,007 --> 00:02:59,053
I grew up with images of
my grandparents in my house.

29
00:02:59,077 --> 00:03:01,277
There was<i> the Picasso.</i>

30
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There was<i> the Leger.</i>

31
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But I didn't ask my father
too many questions about them,

32
00:03:07,218 --> 00:03:09,885
because I didn't want
to bring up painful memories.

33
00:03:09,954 --> 00:03:13,623
...trying to keep it a one run
game in the top of the ninth...

34
00:03:13,692 --> 00:03:14,624
Damn.

35
00:03:14,693 --> 00:03:17,260
Damn.

36
00:03:17,329 --> 00:03:19,896
What are you doing, dad?

37
00:03:19,965 --> 00:03:21,497
They're down.

38
00:03:21,566 --> 00:03:23,499
Damnit.

39
00:03:23,568 --> 00:03:27,169
I didn't follow baseball
'til the world series of 1952,

40
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and in 1953, I watched
baseball all summer long,

41
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and that's when I got hooked.

42
00:03:34,245 --> 00:03:39,048
I was a Dodger fan because
Julius Rosenberg was a Dodger fan.

43
00:03:39,117 --> 00:03:40,482
I always used to say that.

44
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"I am a Dodger fan 'cause
my father was a Dodger fan."

45
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And, but watching it
was a good distraction.

46
00:03:46,824 --> 00:03:49,725
In fact, Robby and I were
watching a baseball game,

47
00:03:49,794 --> 00:03:52,394
it was in actuality, it was
a Philadelphia athletics game

48
00:03:52,463 --> 00:03:54,997
the afternoon of June 19th
when they kept interrupting it

49
00:03:55,066 --> 00:03:56,944
with all these
horrible announcements

50
00:03:56,968 --> 00:04:00,006
about what was gonna
happen that day.

51
00:04:08,679 --> 00:04:11,480
Kind of a ghastly climax
to those curious lives

52
00:04:11,549 --> 00:04:14,450
that had started out
in the poverty

53
00:04:14,519 --> 00:04:16,452
of the Lower East Side
here in New York,

54
00:04:16,521 --> 00:04:20,056
which for a time
had shown great promise.

55
00:04:20,125 --> 00:04:22,925
He was a graduate
electrical engineer.

56
00:04:22,994 --> 00:04:25,628
She had hoped to be
an opera singer.

57
00:04:25,697 --> 00:04:28,063
Had a good voice...

58
00:04:28,132 --> 00:04:30,599
They were sort of
childhood sweethearts.

59
00:04:30,668 --> 00:04:33,270
Everything to live for.

60
00:04:33,339 --> 00:04:35,772
Couple children...

61
00:04:35,841 --> 00:04:39,141
Residence in this
great country...

62
00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:41,814
With all of its opportunities.

63
00:04:43,081 --> 00:04:44,425
I like these pictures,
these are so cool.

64
00:04:44,449 --> 00:04:47,216
You know, this close-up is nice.

65
00:04:47,285 --> 00:04:49,585
Because if you
look at the original,

66
00:04:49,654 --> 00:04:51,620
you can actually see
how dirty my nails were.

67
00:04:51,689 --> 00:04:54,657
And this is before
Robby's hair was cut.

68
00:04:54,726 --> 00:04:57,460
And how old were you guys there?

69
00:04:57,529 --> 00:04:59,862
Well, he's three and I'm seven,

70
00:04:59,931 --> 00:05:01,497
or he's two and I'm six?

71
00:05:01,566 --> 00:05:03,244
This is a very
famous photo right here,

72
00:05:03,268 --> 00:05:07,336
because, this is probably
in central park,

73
00:05:07,405 --> 00:05:10,640
and it's probably right
after they got married.

74
00:05:10,709 --> 00:05:13,576
And it's you know
really, really nice,

75
00:05:13,645 --> 00:05:16,349
they're very,
very happy, obviously.

76
00:05:17,848 --> 00:05:21,517
I mean, Robby and I can say
that there was warmth,

77
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there was love,
there was cuddling,

78
00:05:23,322 --> 00:05:26,155
there was teaching and baseball

79
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and love of music.

80
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We had that, and even though
Robby was only three,

81
00:05:31,430 --> 00:05:33,562
he has a sense of
warmth, you know.

82
00:05:33,631 --> 00:05:37,433
And we can have that,
but you know, you can't,

83
00:05:37,502 --> 00:05:39,936
and that is very,
very unfortunate,

84
00:05:40,005 --> 00:05:42,071
and it's really unfortunate

85
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because they have
been mythologized so.

86
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They made difficult choices.

87
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And, I may not have agreed
with all their choices.

88
00:06:12,804 --> 00:06:16,238
There are all these people
out there who want to say

89
00:06:16,307 --> 00:06:20,243
either the Rosenbergs are devils
or the Rosenbergs are saints.

90
00:06:20,312 --> 00:06:24,484
And the reality is they're
neither devils nor saints.

91
00:06:28,386 --> 00:06:30,386
There's a forgotten guy
in my grandparent's case

92
00:06:30,455 --> 00:06:34,223
because it was actually
the Rosenberg-Sobell trial.

93
00:06:34,292 --> 00:06:36,592
I've known morty my whole life,

94
00:06:36,661 --> 00:06:38,594
but I've never
really talked to him.

95
00:06:38,663 --> 00:06:39,896
Hi.

96
00:06:39,965 --> 00:06:40,965
Morty?

97
00:06:41,033 --> 00:06:42,165
I'm coming down.

98
00:06:42,234 --> 00:06:43,032
Okay.

99
00:06:43,101 --> 00:06:45,702
Hey, no cameras in the lobby.

100
00:06:45,771 --> 00:06:46,970
Do you want to go for...

101
00:06:47,039 --> 00:06:48,204
no cameras in...

102
00:06:48,273 --> 00:06:49,417
take her, take her, take her!

103
00:06:49,441 --> 00:06:50,839
No, don't you dare,
please don't!

104
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Henrietta, these are my friends,
we'll introduce you later.

105
00:06:53,846 --> 00:06:56,179
Good to see you, Ivy.

106
00:06:56,248 --> 00:06:57,580
You too.

107
00:06:57,649 --> 00:07:01,184
When I was cleaning up
Mike Perlin's office,

108
00:07:01,253 --> 00:07:02,663
that's the lawyer,

109
00:07:02,687 --> 00:07:07,857
one of the things I ran into
was this box and I opened it up,

110
00:07:07,926 --> 00:07:10,025
and I was surprised at the...

111
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Let's see, what do we have here?

112
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Here's a badge for Julius.

113
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Oh, wow.

114
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At signal corp.

115
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Signal manufacturing
corporation.

116
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That was when he was
working for the government

117
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and then he got canned.

118
00:07:23,776 --> 00:07:24,940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

119
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A couple of little other things
that they had at that time.

120
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So I rescued them.

121
00:07:30,883 --> 00:07:33,883
Wonder if this "e" is for Ethel?

122
00:07:33,952 --> 00:07:36,418
No, excellence, excellence.

123
00:07:36,487 --> 00:07:40,056
I remember we got those,
but I forgot what they were.

124
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So, I guess where
we should just start

125
00:07:43,261 --> 00:07:44,794
is from the very beginning.

126
00:07:44,863 --> 00:07:46,429
Usually, usually...

127
00:07:46,498 --> 00:07:47,897
A good place to start.

128
00:07:47,966 --> 00:07:49,899
So I mean, for me...

129
00:07:49,968 --> 00:07:51,634
Where is the beginning, though?

130
00:07:51,703 --> 00:07:53,436
Well, that's true,
where is the beginning?

131
00:07:53,505 --> 00:07:55,437
How about trying to understand

132
00:07:55,506 --> 00:07:59,608
who my grandparents
were as people?

133
00:07:59,677 --> 00:08:02,278
They were very ordinary people.

134
00:08:02,347 --> 00:08:04,580
When I knew them they were...

135
00:08:04,649 --> 00:08:08,517
Not different from
any other people you know,

136
00:08:08,586 --> 00:08:12,021
except that they were political,
very political.

137
00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:13,656
What were they like together?

138
00:08:13,725 --> 00:08:16,192
I mean, there was always this,
"they were so in love..."

139
00:08:16,261 --> 00:08:17,406
Oh, they were very...
Oh yeah.

140
00:08:17,430 --> 00:08:18,828
Aww.

141
00:08:18,897 --> 00:08:20,496
But what did you
like about them?

142
00:08:20,565 --> 00:08:23,299
They were political,
we were comrades.

143
00:08:23,368 --> 00:08:25,869
They were my kind of people.

144
00:08:25,938 --> 00:08:28,104
So what would you do?

145
00:08:28,173 --> 00:08:29,838
Would you have dinner?

146
00:08:29,907 --> 00:08:31,674
We didn't have dinner,
we just talked.

147
00:08:31,742 --> 00:08:34,244
We never went out
or anything like that.

148
00:08:34,313 --> 00:08:36,713
We just talked, that was it.

149
00:08:36,782 --> 00:08:38,248
What were the hot topics?

150
00:08:38,317 --> 00:08:40,315
Well, let's see,

151
00:08:40,384 --> 00:08:43,620
the Spanish civil war
started around then,

152
00:08:43,689 --> 00:08:45,554
and then the Soviet Union.

153
00:08:45,622 --> 00:08:48,190
We talked about what was taking
place in the Soviet Union.

154
00:08:48,259 --> 00:08:51,994
Did my grandmother strike you as
someone who cared about this...

155
00:08:52,063 --> 00:08:54,330
funny when you say,
"my grandmother."

156
00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:56,732
I have to do a double take...

157
00:09:00,873 --> 00:09:03,473
How come?

158
00:09:03,541 --> 00:09:06,943
Well, I can't think
of her as a grandmother.

159
00:09:07,012 --> 00:09:08,811
I know.

160
00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,448
Because she was so young
when you last saw her.

161
00:09:11,517 --> 00:09:12,749
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

162
00:09:12,818 --> 00:09:15,083
What was her role?

163
00:09:15,152 --> 00:09:20,056
She was more into children,
and how to bring up children.

164
00:09:20,125 --> 00:09:22,925
Morty Sobell.

165
00:09:22,994 --> 00:09:24,261
Morty Sobell.

166
00:09:24,330 --> 00:09:25,528
Who is morty Sobell?

167
00:09:25,597 --> 00:09:28,698
Morton Sobell is
the third defendant

168
00:09:28,767 --> 00:09:30,767
in your grandparents' case.

169
00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:32,334
The key to morty is

170
00:09:32,403 --> 00:09:35,304
he was offered the chance
to plead guilty,

171
00:09:35,373 --> 00:09:37,072
and point the finger
at your grandfather.

172
00:09:37,141 --> 00:09:39,420
He refused, and for that
he spent 19 years in jail.

173
00:09:39,444 --> 00:09:41,410
It's as simple as that.

174
00:09:41,479 --> 00:09:44,080
Michael has asked me sometimes,

175
00:09:44,149 --> 00:09:46,116
"you know something
I don't know?"

176
00:09:46,185 --> 00:09:47,317
Yeah.

177
00:09:48,854 --> 00:09:50,957
Do you?

178
00:09:55,226 --> 00:10:01,096
He thinks that I have secrets
which I could impart to them.

179
00:10:01,165 --> 00:10:05,568
Right, that maybe, you know,
if you knew Julius,

180
00:10:05,637 --> 00:10:07,180
could Julius have been...

181
00:10:07,204 --> 00:10:10,207
would it be something that he
could be would be capable of?

182
00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:11,674
Was he capable?

183
00:10:11,743 --> 00:10:13,343
I don't know what it takes,

184
00:10:13,411 --> 00:10:16,212
what capability
it takes to be a spy...

185
00:10:16,281 --> 00:10:20,016
So all you can say is,
you don't know.

186
00:10:20,085 --> 00:10:24,119
I have no private knowledge,
that's all I can say.

187
00:10:24,188 --> 00:10:27,523
You know people ask me,
"was he innocent?"

188
00:10:27,592 --> 00:10:30,897
And, "you know
as much as I do."

189
00:11:09,467 --> 00:11:11,967
The East Side was no picnic.

190
00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:16,606
I went through school
with Ethel.

191
00:11:16,675 --> 00:11:18,674
We didn't have any money,

192
00:11:18,743 --> 00:11:22,878
but Ethel skipped classes
because she was so bright.

193
00:11:22,947 --> 00:11:27,683
The best thing that happened
there was when Ethel sang.

194
00:11:27,752 --> 00:11:31,888
And they came in
from the other rooms,

195
00:11:31,957 --> 00:11:34,123
that everybody was listening.

196
00:11:34,192 --> 00:11:36,392
And when I think of it
I begin to cry.

197
00:11:36,461 --> 00:11:42,435
Ethel was very, very special.

198
00:11:44,269 --> 00:11:47,036
I went to a couple of parties
on the Lower East Side.

199
00:11:47,105 --> 00:11:48,470
I met them there.

200
00:11:48,539 --> 00:11:50,940
And I was invited
to their wedding.

201
00:11:51,009 --> 00:11:52,875
What was that like?

202
00:11:52,943 --> 00:11:59,148
Well, it was as Jewish as can be
without the orthodox bullshit.

203
00:11:59,217 --> 00:12:01,518
It was a Jewish wedding.

204
00:12:01,586 --> 00:12:03,386
They we as Jewish as they come.

205
00:12:03,455 --> 00:12:04,653
I mean you...

206
00:12:04,722 --> 00:12:07,994
You could almost smell
the pickled herring.

207
00:12:10,795 --> 00:12:14,163
I first met Julius
at city college.

208
00:12:14,232 --> 00:12:18,034
I think the year
was 1934 or five.

209
00:12:18,103 --> 00:12:20,836
At that time I was
an activist on the campus,

210
00:12:20,905 --> 00:12:23,740
and so I ran into
Julie at a meeting

211
00:12:23,809 --> 00:12:26,709
that the young communist league
had put together.

212
00:12:26,778 --> 00:12:28,144
There was a lot of
campus activity.

213
00:12:28,213 --> 00:12:32,715
City college in the '30s makes
Berkeley in the '60s look pale.

214
00:12:32,784 --> 00:12:35,818
Starting point of my politics

215
00:12:35,887 --> 00:12:38,554
was seeing a man picking food
out of a garbage can.

216
00:12:38,623 --> 00:12:41,535
I was 11 or 12
and my dad said to me,

217
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,107
"you're too young to understand
why people are reduced to that."

218
00:12:46,131 --> 00:12:48,898
I said, "papa,
I want to know now."

219
00:12:48,967 --> 00:12:52,368
And he said,
"son, I can't tell you."

220
00:12:52,437 --> 00:12:56,638
It wasn't until three
or four years later that

221
00:12:56,707 --> 00:13:00,609
I ran into the young communists
and what they said explained

222
00:13:00,678 --> 00:13:03,680
why that man was eating
out of the garbage can.

223
00:13:16,295 --> 00:13:17,295
Hello!

224
00:13:17,329 --> 00:13:18,194
How are you?

225
00:13:18,263 --> 00:13:19,729
Good, how are you?

226
00:13:19,798 --> 00:13:22,899
It is so terrific to see you.

227
00:13:22,968 --> 00:13:24,067
You too.

228
00:13:24,136 --> 00:13:25,434
I just can't believe it.

229
00:13:25,503 --> 00:13:31,140
It's 50 years that just
seems to swirl right by.

230
00:13:31,210 --> 00:13:32,708
I know.

231
00:13:32,777 --> 00:13:39,214
The house of detention
where Ethel and I were jailed

232
00:13:39,283 --> 00:13:43,186
used to be on 6th Avenue
between 9th and 10th streets,

233
00:13:43,255 --> 00:13:47,790
and when the van
came to load us up

234
00:13:47,859 --> 00:13:49,726
to take us to court,

235
00:13:49,795 --> 00:13:52,929
Ethel and Julius
would be in that van.

236
00:13:52,998 --> 00:13:56,632
And it was pitch black in there,

237
00:13:56,701 --> 00:14:00,336
and one time a prisoner
lit a cigarette

238
00:14:00,405 --> 00:14:04,240
and in the flickering light
we saw Ethel and Julie

239
00:14:04,309 --> 00:14:07,180
trying to kiss
through that gate.

240
00:14:08,546 --> 00:14:11,080
After the trial,
she was moved to my floor

241
00:14:11,149 --> 00:14:15,484
and that gave me the opportunity
then to become friendly with her

242
00:14:15,553 --> 00:14:18,053
for that brief time
that she was there.

243
00:14:18,122 --> 00:14:21,957
In those days,
we had this great feeling

244
00:14:22,026 --> 00:14:25,595
of social responsibility,

245
00:14:25,664 --> 00:14:29,932
and if we worked together and
we linked arms with other people

246
00:14:30,001 --> 00:14:34,270
who wanted a better way
of life, we would get it.

247
00:14:34,339 --> 00:14:37,640
And we were acutely aware

248
00:14:37,709 --> 00:14:40,876
that things couldn't
go on the way they were.

249
00:14:40,945 --> 00:14:44,113
I would pass lines of men

250
00:14:44,182 --> 00:14:48,985
waiting on line for
a soup kitchen to open,

251
00:14:49,054 --> 00:14:52,554
hours before, threadbare,
in the mid winter.

252
00:14:52,623 --> 00:14:56,326
I saw families that were being
evicted from their apartments,

253
00:14:56,395 --> 00:14:58,594
because they couldn't
pay their rent.

254
00:14:58,663 --> 00:15:04,233
You had to be dead from
the neck up not to feel radical,

255
00:15:04,302 --> 00:15:08,338
that some...
a change was necessary.

256
00:15:08,407 --> 00:15:13,212
Listen, I'm getting upset.

257
00:15:22,887 --> 00:15:26,489
Communism in reality
is not a political party.

258
00:15:26,558 --> 00:15:27,657
It is a way of life.

259
00:15:27,726 --> 00:15:29,759
An evil and malignant
way of life.

260
00:15:29,828 --> 00:15:32,629
It reveals a condition
akin to disease

261
00:15:32,698 --> 00:15:35,264
that spreads like an epidemic.

262
00:15:35,333 --> 00:15:37,933
And like an epidemic,
a quarantine is necessary

263
00:15:38,002 --> 00:15:41,073
to keep it from
infecting this nation.

264
00:15:42,273 --> 00:15:44,673
A lot of people characterize
the time as romantic

265
00:15:44,742 --> 00:15:47,009
that people were...
Did it...

266
00:15:47,078 --> 00:15:50,280
Yes, people were romantic
in what could be done.

267
00:15:50,349 --> 00:15:51,747
You dreamed.

268
00:15:51,816 --> 00:15:53,449
You dreamed a lot of...

269
00:15:53,518 --> 00:15:55,484
What would you dream of?

270
00:15:55,553 --> 00:15:58,121
You dreamed of
a socialist country where...

271
00:15:58,190 --> 00:15:59,589
what did it look like?

272
00:15:59,658 --> 00:16:01,123
There wasn't hunger

273
00:16:01,192 --> 00:16:03,760
and you didn't have
discrimination against blacks.

274
00:16:03,829 --> 00:16:08,965
So what you and Julius
and your group of friends

275
00:16:09,034 --> 00:16:12,936
were fighting for
was a socialist world.

276
00:16:13,005 --> 00:16:14,403
A socialist world, yeah.

277
00:16:14,472 --> 00:16:16,518
And we really believed that the
Soviet Union was such a model.

278
00:16:16,542 --> 00:16:19,808
No question about it.

279
00:16:19,877 --> 00:16:22,878
And we really believed that
without the Soviet Union,

280
00:16:22,947 --> 00:16:25,147
the world was going
down a horrible path.

281
00:16:25,216 --> 00:16:28,784
Consequently, we would dedicate
all our energies and our lives,

282
00:16:28,853 --> 00:16:33,426
if necessary, to see to it that
the Soviet Union wasn't smashed.

283
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,960
Communists have been, still are,

284
00:16:38,029 --> 00:16:41,130
and always will be
a menace to freedom,

285
00:16:41,199 --> 00:16:44,133
to Democratic ideals,
to the worship of god,

286
00:16:44,202 --> 00:16:46,180
and to America's way of life.

287
00:16:46,204 --> 00:16:48,604
Victory will be assured
once communists

288
00:16:48,673 --> 00:16:52,078
are identified and exposed.

289
00:16:53,678 --> 00:16:56,513
My image of Julius
was as a good guy,

290
00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:59,115
but what I called a
"dripnose."

291
00:16:59,184 --> 00:17:00,784
If a policeman raised his club

292
00:17:00,819 --> 00:17:03,085
he would shake more
than I would shake.

293
00:17:03,154 --> 00:17:04,987
It's a very superficial thing,

294
00:17:05,056 --> 00:17:06,923
but that is truly
the way I felt.

295
00:17:06,992 --> 00:17:11,428
That's why I was so amazed
by the way he stood up.

296
00:17:11,497 --> 00:17:14,296
Absolutely flabbergasted by it.

297
00:17:14,365 --> 00:17:17,266
Senator, you have
the distinction of having

298
00:17:17,335 --> 00:17:20,436
coined a new word namely,
"mccarthyism."

299
00:17:20,505 --> 00:17:23,705
Now, how do you define
mccarthyism, sir?

300
00:17:23,774 --> 00:17:28,745
Calling a man a communist
who is later proven to be one.

301
00:17:28,814 --> 00:17:32,381
A lot of people
may raise the question,

302
00:17:32,450 --> 00:17:34,383
"why all this hullabaloo
about being fair,

303
00:17:34,452 --> 00:17:37,153
"particularly when the people
you're investigating

304
00:17:37,222 --> 00:17:39,088
are a bunch of traitors?"

305
00:17:39,157 --> 00:17:40,701
In fact, I've heard
some people even say,

306
00:17:40,725 --> 00:17:42,859
"after all, they're
a bunch of rats.

307
00:17:42,928 --> 00:17:44,861
Why don't we go out
and shoot them?"

308
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:47,129
Well, I agree that
the communists are rats,

309
00:17:47,198 --> 00:17:49,698
but on the other hand
remember this:

310
00:17:49,767 --> 00:17:55,808
When you go out to shoot rats,
you've got to shoot straight.

311
00:18:02,214 --> 00:18:03,746
Wonder if they walked down here,

312
00:18:03,815 --> 00:18:05,392
no, they must have
come in the back.

313
00:18:05,416 --> 00:18:07,184
No, there's probably
a back entrance.

314
00:18:07,253 --> 00:18:08,253
Yeah.

315
00:18:11,323 --> 00:18:13,690
That's a scary sound.

316
00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:14,759
It is.

317
00:18:14,793 --> 00:18:16,325
It makes me sweat
just being here.

318
00:18:16,394 --> 00:18:18,395
Yeah, it's kind of
terrifying, right?

319
00:18:18,464 --> 00:18:19,799
Yeah.

320
00:18:27,038 --> 00:18:29,371
So how do you think
our legacy helped you

321
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,085
decide to become a lawyer?

322
00:18:31,109 --> 00:18:32,820
I think from the beginning

323
00:18:32,844 --> 00:18:34,544
I never had a sense
that justice was easy,

324
00:18:34,613 --> 00:18:36,912
or something that
you could count on,

325
00:18:36,981 --> 00:18:40,750
or something that would occur
unless people worked at it.

326
00:18:40,819 --> 00:18:42,885
I guess I started off
with this sense of

327
00:18:42,954 --> 00:18:45,622
that these huge
injustices occur.

328
00:18:45,691 --> 00:18:48,557
Being in here,
I can't help thinking

329
00:18:48,626 --> 00:18:50,159
about being their lawyer.

330
00:18:50,228 --> 00:18:51,794
You know, how that would be?

331
00:18:51,863 --> 00:18:54,063
I think part of the reason
I wanted to get into law

332
00:18:54,132 --> 00:18:55,543
when I was younger
was the sense of,

333
00:18:55,567 --> 00:18:56,465
"oh, I'm gonna be a lawyer,

334
00:18:56,534 --> 00:18:59,201
and I'm gonna prove
their innocence," you know,

335
00:18:59,270 --> 00:19:01,316
I'm sure we all thought
about that when we were kids.

336
00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:04,574
Say we found, like real proof

337
00:19:04,643 --> 00:19:07,076
that there was
convincing evidence

338
00:19:07,145 --> 00:19:08,844
that they might have
done something,

339
00:19:08,913 --> 00:19:10,658
do you think it would change
how you feel about them?

340
00:19:10,682 --> 00:19:12,447
No, I mean, not at all.

341
00:19:12,516 --> 00:19:14,783
First of all there are
so many different levels on,

342
00:19:14,852 --> 00:19:17,219
at which what happened
to them was an injustice.

343
00:19:17,288 --> 00:19:19,166
You know, you look at the facts:
No matter what,

344
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:20,968
I do believe that
they were framed,

345
00:19:20,992 --> 00:19:23,525
that there was serious
prosecutorial misconduct,

346
00:19:23,594 --> 00:19:26,629
and also, I can't really
imagine anyone in our family

347
00:19:26,698 --> 00:19:29,231
being a completely
hapless victim, right?

348
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:31,034
That's not the way
any of us are.

349
00:19:31,103 --> 00:19:32,768
Yeah, yeah.

350
00:19:32,837 --> 00:19:36,105
I don't believe that they did
what they were, you know

351
00:19:36,174 --> 00:19:37,384
convicted of by any stretch,

352
00:19:37,408 --> 00:19:40,043
but on the other hand, you know
I think you look at our family,

353
00:19:40,112 --> 00:19:41,823
and you see a lot of people

354
00:19:41,847 --> 00:19:42,779
that take control
of their lives.

355
00:19:42,848 --> 00:19:46,152
I'd like to think that
they were the same way.

356
00:19:55,293 --> 00:19:57,526
It's so weird to picture
the fact that

357
00:19:57,595 --> 00:20:00,229
like nobody sitting
on these benches

358
00:20:00,298 --> 00:20:02,465
was really here for them,
either, you know?

359
00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:05,534
None of the family, you know?

360
00:20:05,603 --> 00:20:08,171
It was probably most
of the people in here

361
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,239
just were looking for...

362
00:20:10,308 --> 00:20:11,574
Blood.

363
00:20:11,643 --> 00:20:12,979
Blood, yeah.

364
00:20:17,783 --> 00:20:20,784
Ladies and gentlemen, friends,

365
00:20:20,853 --> 00:20:25,021
I'd like to read you a poem

366
00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:28,327
written by a good American:

367
00:20:31,129 --> 00:20:33,596
"And when the Rosenbergs
are dead

368
00:20:33,665 --> 00:20:36,165
"and wrapped in shrouds
of cremlin red

369
00:20:36,234 --> 00:20:39,001
"all future traitors
will be aware

370
00:20:39,070 --> 00:20:42,304
"that they will fry
in the electric chair.

371
00:20:42,373 --> 00:20:46,442
"The Rosenbergs
must fry and die.

372
00:20:46,511 --> 00:20:49,345
"If this death they
should escape

373
00:20:49,414 --> 00:20:53,449
"our starry banner
will cease to fly.

374
00:20:53,518 --> 00:20:58,354
"O' may god's lights
spark the death

375
00:20:58,423 --> 00:21:00,693
of this communist pair."

376
00:21:01,693 --> 00:21:03,993
The ring was first uncovered

377
00:21:04,062 --> 00:21:06,362
following the arrest
of Klaus fuchs in england.

378
00:21:06,431 --> 00:21:08,865
David Greenglass,
Mrs. Rosenberg's brother,

379
00:21:08,934 --> 00:21:10,733
confessed theft of the secrets

380
00:21:10,802 --> 00:21:12,746
while stationed at the
los Alamos atomic project.

381
00:21:12,770 --> 00:21:15,270
He later became
the government's chief witness

382
00:21:15,339 --> 00:21:19,011
in the prosecution of
Sobell and the Rosenbergs.

383
00:21:22,948 --> 00:21:24,314
For half a century now

384
00:21:24,383 --> 00:21:26,215
he's known that
his false testimony

385
00:21:26,284 --> 00:21:28,283
cost his sister her life.

386
00:21:28,352 --> 00:21:30,386
How do you think history
will remember you?

387
00:21:30,455 --> 00:21:34,857
As the spy that
turned his family in.

388
00:21:34,926 --> 00:21:36,526
Do you care?

389
00:21:36,595 --> 00:21:37,994
Not particularly.

390
00:21:38,063 --> 00:21:39,461
I don't care.

391
00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:41,897
As a youngster,

392
00:21:41,966 --> 00:21:44,934
I always reserved all my hatred
for Dave Greenglass,

393
00:21:45,003 --> 00:21:47,103
David and Ruth Greenglass.

394
00:21:47,172 --> 00:21:49,004
This is so interesting:

395
00:21:49,073 --> 00:21:52,308
When I was eight years old
and living in the shelter,

396
00:21:52,377 --> 00:21:54,244
I had been punished,

397
00:21:54,313 --> 00:21:56,312
and I ended up being alone,

398
00:21:56,381 --> 00:21:59,749
while all kids were
playing all day outside

399
00:21:59,818 --> 00:22:01,062
and I couldn't play,

400
00:22:01,086 --> 00:22:03,319
I was just alone inside
and I spent the whole time

401
00:22:03,388 --> 00:22:06,722
talking about
the kinds of vengeance

402
00:22:06,791 --> 00:22:09,859
I would enact on David
and Ruth Greenglass.

403
00:22:09,928 --> 00:22:11,694
What were you gonna do?

404
00:22:11,763 --> 00:22:13,629
I don't even remember
at the time, you know.

405
00:22:13,698 --> 00:22:18,868
I do know that one of the things
that I have always as a kid...

406
00:22:18,937 --> 00:22:20,047
and I guess even to today...

407
00:22:20,071 --> 00:22:24,207
I have always believed in
exposure as a tremendous thing.

408
00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:26,342
You know, proving that
somebody lied publically

409
00:22:26,411 --> 00:22:28,211
is always very important to me,

410
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,879
as opposed to somebody else

411
00:22:29,948 --> 00:22:31,614
might like to smash them
in the face.

412
00:22:31,683 --> 00:22:33,950
You know, so for instance,
David Greenglass,

413
00:22:34,019 --> 00:22:35,363
what I wanted to do is find him

414
00:22:35,387 --> 00:22:36,697
when he was out of jail

415
00:22:36,721 --> 00:22:40,556
and stand behind him and
yell very loud, "ex-con!"

416
00:22:40,625 --> 00:22:42,991
And of course, I had seen movies

417
00:22:43,060 --> 00:22:46,495
where people who were
in danger of being exposed

418
00:22:46,564 --> 00:22:48,764
as ex-cons would be very upset.

419
00:22:48,833 --> 00:22:51,412
So I thought he would say,
"oh please, don't tell anybody."

420
00:22:51,436 --> 00:22:53,503
Ex-con!

421
00:22:53,572 --> 00:22:55,004
What did you say, ex-con?!

422
00:22:55,073 --> 00:22:57,740
You know, I was thinking,
"wouldn't that be great?"

423
00:22:57,809 --> 00:23:02,178
Revenge, I love revenge,
revenge is so sweet.

424
00:23:02,247 --> 00:23:06,816
I remember when I called you
from college freshman year,

425
00:23:06,885 --> 00:23:08,929
and I'd just started
reading about everything.

426
00:23:08,953 --> 00:23:12,422
The full impact of what
David Greenglass did, hit me

427
00:23:12,491 --> 00:23:14,524
and I was crying and I said,

428
00:23:14,593 --> 00:23:16,960
"why don't we go
find David Greenglass,

429
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:19,729
that fucking bastard,
let's go get him.

430
00:23:19,798 --> 00:23:21,897
Let's go, at least
go knock on his door,

431
00:23:21,966 --> 00:23:23,799
and say, "here we are."

432
00:23:23,868 --> 00:23:25,268
Greenglass?

433
00:23:25,337 --> 00:23:26,803
Pathetic creature.

434
00:23:26,872 --> 00:23:28,537
If I were kind,
I would pity him.

435
00:23:28,606 --> 00:23:31,541
Long before this all happened
and I met that kid,

436
00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:33,020
he was a skunk.

437
00:23:33,044 --> 00:23:35,812
He was an absolute skunk
the minute I looked at him.

438
00:23:35,881 --> 00:23:37,980
Forgetting all the politics,

439
00:23:38,049 --> 00:23:40,883
he was just a selfish,
little skunk.

440
00:23:40,952 --> 00:23:43,786
But it's this cruel irony:

441
00:23:43,855 --> 00:23:47,223
I would love to talk to any
of Ethel or Julius' siblings

442
00:23:47,292 --> 00:23:50,260
and they're all gone,
except he still lives.

443
00:23:50,329 --> 00:23:51,962
Grandma's gone too.

444
00:23:52,031 --> 00:23:53,396
She was a witch.

445
00:23:53,465 --> 00:23:54,465
Tessie.

446
00:23:54,533 --> 00:23:56,633
Absolute witch.

447
00:23:56,702 --> 00:23:59,902
Cold-hearted bitch.

448
00:23:59,971 --> 00:24:04,407
So your first introduction to
Greenglass was in the courtroom.

449
00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:05,975
Right, right.

450
00:24:06,044 --> 00:24:07,209
And what was that like?

451
00:24:07,278 --> 00:24:11,081
Well, there was this way he
was sort of smiling, you know...

452
00:24:11,150 --> 00:24:12,449
what was that?

453
00:24:12,518 --> 00:24:13,249
That was weird, you know.

454
00:24:13,318 --> 00:24:15,651
He always had that,
with his face.

455
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,053
A smirk.

456
00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:19,655
It was always that,
no matter what.

457
00:24:19,724 --> 00:24:23,326
At times it was so
inappropriate, you know?

458
00:24:23,395 --> 00:24:25,494
When he's talking about
these serious things.

459
00:24:25,563 --> 00:24:28,364
I felt something was
wrong here, with this guy.

460
00:24:28,433 --> 00:24:30,666
Do you remember Ethel,

461
00:24:30,735 --> 00:24:32,903
or talking about what
David was doing?

462
00:24:32,972 --> 00:24:33,903
Yes.

463
00:24:33,972 --> 00:24:35,304
She couldn't understand it.

464
00:24:35,373 --> 00:24:38,174
She had always been
his big sister,

465
00:24:38,243 --> 00:24:40,543
and she had always
thought of him

466
00:24:40,612 --> 00:24:42,211
as this cute little kid.

467
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,681
She could not understand
how he could do such a thing.

468
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:49,185
But she also knew what
pressure he was under,

469
00:24:49,254 --> 00:24:52,889
because she had been
under the same pressure.

470
00:24:52,958 --> 00:24:56,326
The FBI kept after him,

471
00:24:56,395 --> 00:25:00,830
and they were...

472
00:25:00,899 --> 00:25:04,667
Building a kind of steel trap,

473
00:25:04,736 --> 00:25:06,435
and he never saw it.

474
00:25:06,504 --> 00:25:09,538
What he was concerned about was
that they not arrest his wife,

475
00:25:09,607 --> 00:25:13,576
who was then ill,
and he had a new baby.

476
00:25:13,645 --> 00:25:17,046
And so he thought the easiest
way out of this thing,

477
00:25:17,115 --> 00:25:18,993
"I'll tell them what
they want to know."

478
00:25:19,017 --> 00:25:23,018
And that's when
the whole thing exploded.

479
00:25:23,087 --> 00:25:25,254
Ethel typed my notes.

480
00:25:25,323 --> 00:25:28,224
"That was Greenglass'
story in 1951,

481
00:25:28,293 --> 00:25:31,094
and he stuck to it
for half a century.

482
00:25:31,163 --> 00:25:34,364
But now he has
a different recollection.

483
00:25:34,433 --> 00:25:35,843
I don't know who
typed it, frankly.

484
00:25:35,867 --> 00:25:38,535
To this day
I can't even remember

485
00:25:38,604 --> 00:25:39,846
that the typing took place.

486
00:25:39,870 --> 00:25:42,905
And did Cohen encourage
you to testify that

487
00:25:42,974 --> 00:25:46,142
you saw Ethel
typing up the notes?

488
00:25:46,211 --> 00:25:47,510
Of course he did.

489
00:25:47,579 --> 00:25:49,624
Did you realize at the time,
or when you were testifying,

490
00:25:49,648 --> 00:25:51,058
the importance of this...

491
00:25:51,082 --> 00:25:53,016
the evidence you were providing?

492
00:25:53,085 --> 00:25:55,317
I had no idea that
it was important at all.

493
00:25:55,386 --> 00:25:56,786
I mean, he could've said,

494
00:25:56,855 --> 00:25:58,399
"no, I'm just gonna
tell you the truth."

495
00:25:58,423 --> 00:26:03,993
But he was actually willing
to embellish on the truth

496
00:26:04,062 --> 00:26:06,162
in order to help out
the government.

497
00:26:06,231 --> 00:26:08,964
And so he gets worse and worse.

498
00:26:09,033 --> 00:26:11,534
You know, he's no longer
just a frightened guy.

499
00:26:11,603 --> 00:26:15,237
He's a willing cooperator

500
00:26:15,306 --> 00:26:19,545
with the government's
machinations.

501
00:26:23,347 --> 00:26:25,348
You still don't
have any urge now

502
00:26:25,417 --> 00:26:28,751
to ever talk to him or...

503
00:26:28,820 --> 00:26:32,822
No, I mean what
would be the point?

504
00:26:32,891 --> 00:26:34,991
What would happen, you know?

505
00:26:35,060 --> 00:26:38,060
Yell at him to his face?

506
00:26:38,129 --> 00:26:41,634
You know, big deal, you know.

507
00:26:46,906 --> 00:26:48,837
Yeah...

508
00:26:48,906 --> 00:26:52,041
And what would you like to do,
yell at him to his face?

509
00:26:52,110 --> 00:26:57,079
Well, I would like to...

510
00:26:57,148 --> 00:27:05,091
Talk to him and
make him confess.

511
00:27:05,791 --> 00:27:07,223
Well, I mean, confess to what?

512
00:27:07,292 --> 00:27:09,826
He's already confessed
on<i> 60 minutes,</i>

513
00:27:09,895 --> 00:27:11,139
you saw him confess.

514
00:27:11,163 --> 00:27:12,661
Yeah, but in such a...

515
00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:16,032
I guess I would want him
to confess and show remorse.

516
00:27:16,101 --> 00:27:20,206
Well, you can't
make him show remorse.

517
00:27:30,248 --> 00:27:32,315
It's so crazy that all this time

518
00:27:32,384 --> 00:27:34,651
he's lived not that far from me.

519
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,658
I mean, this was
such a short drive.

520
00:27:42,428 --> 00:27:44,493
Is this his street?

521
00:27:44,562 --> 00:27:46,495
This is, uh, the street
before his street.

522
00:27:46,564 --> 00:27:47,997
The street before his street.

523
00:27:48,066 --> 00:27:50,166
We're gonna be there
in about 30 seconds.

524
00:27:50,235 --> 00:27:52,438
I'm nervous.

525
00:27:58,310 --> 00:28:00,477
Uh oh, here we go, to your left.

526
00:28:00,546 --> 00:28:01,778
What, what?!

527
00:28:01,847 --> 00:28:03,912
That's his house?

528
00:28:03,981 --> 00:28:07,616
Look at how all the blinds
are shut like nobody's home.

529
00:28:07,685 --> 00:28:11,888
They've got one of those
security systems there.

530
00:28:11,957 --> 00:28:14,723
My god, I mean, it's just like

531
00:28:14,792 --> 00:28:17,193
the most innocuous place
you could imagine, you know.

532
00:28:17,262 --> 00:28:19,796
There's nothing
that even says anything

533
00:28:19,865 --> 00:28:21,998
about the person
who lives there.

534
00:28:22,067 --> 00:28:24,635
So this is where he ended up.

535
00:28:24,704 --> 00:28:27,002
Wow.

536
00:28:27,071 --> 00:28:29,242
Wonder if his neighbors know.

537
00:28:32,144 --> 00:28:34,610
Going to see his house
just part of letting go

538
00:28:34,679 --> 00:28:37,313
of the fact that
he just represented this...

539
00:28:37,382 --> 00:28:40,119
Ultimate evil.

540
00:28:43,621 --> 00:28:46,056
I feel kind of nauseous.

541
00:28:46,125 --> 00:28:48,294
Wow.

542
00:28:49,226 --> 00:28:51,428
So, dad, I want to tell you
something that I...

543
00:28:51,497 --> 00:28:52,328
that I did.

544
00:28:52,397 --> 00:28:53,463
Alright.

545
00:28:53,532 --> 00:28:57,967
I went to
David Greenglass' house.

546
00:28:58,036 --> 00:28:59,736
Holy shit.

547
00:28:59,805 --> 00:29:01,938
I just drove by though.

548
00:29:02,007 --> 00:29:03,039
Oh.

549
00:29:03,108 --> 00:29:04,440
You found it?

550
00:29:04,509 --> 00:29:05,608
I found his house...

551
00:29:05,677 --> 00:29:06,721
How the hell did you find it?

552
00:29:06,745 --> 00:29:10,580
Umm...
We have our ways.

553
00:29:10,649 --> 00:29:12,381
Unbelievable.

554
00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:14,383
I wouldn't have dreamed
that in a million years

555
00:29:14,452 --> 00:29:17,253
that you would "a" have
found it, and "b" driven by it.

556
00:29:17,322 --> 00:29:19,422
The last thing
I wanted was for him

557
00:29:19,491 --> 00:29:21,357
to walk out that front door.

558
00:29:21,426 --> 00:29:27,464
Well, if you did, you could've
filmed him and driven away.

559
00:29:27,533 --> 00:29:28,898
That's true.

560
00:29:28,967 --> 00:29:31,168
Maybe we'll go back.

561
00:29:31,237 --> 00:29:33,136
Who's the "we"?

562
00:29:33,205 --> 00:29:34,437
Not me.

563
00:29:34,506 --> 00:29:36,609
I have no interest.

564
00:29:57,229 --> 00:29:58,594
"1950.

565
00:29:58,663 --> 00:30:02,298
Found in the closet,
8:18 at night."

566
00:30:02,367 --> 00:30:05,301
This must have been the first
time the FBI cleaned out,

567
00:30:05,370 --> 00:30:07,804
started to clean out
their apartment.

568
00:30:07,873 --> 00:30:10,773
Evidently it was used
to confirm the fact

569
00:30:10,842 --> 00:30:14,043
they had connections
with the communist party.

570
00:30:14,112 --> 00:30:18,481
So this "save a Spanish
republican child"

571
00:30:18,550 --> 00:30:23,089
was proof of evildoings.

572
00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:29,058
Prosecution introduced
this facsimile jello box

573
00:30:29,127 --> 00:30:31,193
to represent
the recognition signal

574
00:30:31,262 --> 00:30:33,296
supposedly devised
by Julius Rosenberg,

575
00:30:33,365 --> 00:30:35,832
for Greenglass and Harry gold.

576
00:30:35,901 --> 00:30:37,733
Roy cohn is credited
with selecting

577
00:30:37,802 --> 00:30:39,970
imitation raspberry
for the facsimile.

578
00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:42,705
I'm touching it.

579
00:30:42,774 --> 00:30:44,474
You know I never asked my dad

580
00:30:44,543 --> 00:30:46,509
if they ever even had jello.

581
00:30:46,578 --> 00:30:52,715
Oh, look at this,
the console table.

582
00:30:52,784 --> 00:30:55,918
The Rosenbergs kept saying,
"we bought it at Macy's."

583
00:30:55,987 --> 00:30:59,488
The prosecution was saying it
was a gift from the Russians,

584
00:30:59,557 --> 00:31:03,126
and it had some
special thing underneath it

585
00:31:03,195 --> 00:31:05,795
that you could take
photographs with.

586
00:31:05,864 --> 00:31:08,897
They actually discovered
before the execution

587
00:31:08,966 --> 00:31:11,134
that the Rosenbergs
were telling the truth,

588
00:31:11,203 --> 00:31:13,101
that they had
bought it at Macy's,

589
00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:15,571
but judge Kaufman refused
to hear the new evidence.

590
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,441
That's the lens mold.

591
00:31:18,510 --> 00:31:24,817
Look, David Greenglass,
June 15th, 1950.

592
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:31,420
This is the cross section
of the a-bomb.

593
00:31:31,489 --> 00:31:36,662
That would help you
develop the a-bomb?

594
00:31:47,472 --> 00:31:48,541
Oh my god.

595
00:31:52,644 --> 00:31:54,877
This is a letter that
Ethel wrote to my dad.

596
00:31:54,946 --> 00:31:59,915
"My sweet Michael boy,
I have just had my dinner

597
00:31:59,984 --> 00:32:02,318
"and feel like having
a little visit with you.

598
00:32:02,387 --> 00:32:03,853
"Yesterday I went to court

599
00:32:03,922 --> 00:32:05,889
"and there I saw your dear daddy

600
00:32:05,958 --> 00:32:08,057
"and what do you
think we spoke of?

601
00:32:08,126 --> 00:32:09,692
"You and Robby of course,

602
00:32:09,761 --> 00:32:13,533
and of how much we miss you
and what we can do..."

603
00:32:16,202 --> 00:32:18,100
Umm...

604
00:32:18,169 --> 00:32:23,606
"And what we can do to keep you
both happy and healthy.

605
00:32:23,675 --> 00:32:27,210
"First, I want you to know
that daddy looked very nice

606
00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:31,114
and said
he felt well."

607
00:32:31,183 --> 00:32:34,854
Umm...

608
00:32:38,890 --> 00:32:41,857
"He is the same wonderful
daddy that you knew

609
00:32:41,926 --> 00:32:44,960
"who always loved both his boys

610
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:47,062
"and would ask
for nothing more now

611
00:32:47,131 --> 00:32:49,265
"than to be back
living and playing

612
00:32:49,334 --> 00:32:51,471
and having fun
with them."

613
00:32:53,704 --> 00:32:56,606
"Many, many hugs and kisses
to my dear children

614
00:32:56,675 --> 00:33:00,076
"whose mommy and daddy...

615
00:33:00,145 --> 00:33:04,547
"Loves them very much,

616
00:33:04,616 --> 00:33:06,519
your mommy, Ethel."

617
00:33:39,685 --> 00:33:41,618
"We told you the truth."

618
00:33:41,687 --> 00:33:43,420
"We are innocent.

619
00:33:43,489 --> 00:33:46,222
"The truth does not change.

620
00:33:46,291 --> 00:33:53,162
We now again solemnly
declare our innocence."

621
00:33:53,231 --> 00:33:55,699
This is Robby and I
visiting Sing Sing.

622
00:33:55,768 --> 00:33:57,199
That's Manny Bloch.

623
00:33:57,268 --> 00:34:00,003
First time we visited them
was in August '51,

624
00:34:00,072 --> 00:34:04,607
and we visited them

625
00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:07,980
for almost two full years
after that.

626
00:34:14,485 --> 00:34:16,419
Do you remember the first visit?

627
00:34:16,488 --> 00:34:19,158
Oh, I remember the first visit
like it was yesterday.

628
00:34:21,993 --> 00:34:24,126
We saw them separately,
and we hid.

629
00:34:24,195 --> 00:34:26,695
We hid to make believe
we weren't there

630
00:34:26,764 --> 00:34:29,031
and Manny was supposed to say,
"oh they couldn't come,

631
00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:31,100
and we giggled and ran out,

632
00:34:31,169 --> 00:34:33,936
and my mother,
we both visited her,

633
00:34:34,005 --> 00:34:37,206
we both gave her a hug saying,
"you look smaller."

634
00:34:37,275 --> 00:34:40,243
And of course
she immediately reacted,

635
00:34:40,312 --> 00:34:42,582
"well, it's because
you've grown so much."

636
00:34:48,253 --> 00:34:49,885
I remember one
conversation which was,

637
00:34:49,954 --> 00:34:51,920
"look, are you
really innocent?"

638
00:34:51,989 --> 00:34:56,659
That was one conversation
that was very brief.

639
00:34:56,728 --> 00:34:59,661
Of course they responded, "but
of course we are," you know.

640
00:34:59,730 --> 00:35:02,632
Later somebody told me
they were quite upset

641
00:35:02,701 --> 00:35:04,666
that I asked that question,

642
00:35:04,735 --> 00:35:08,074
because, you know,
even<i> we</i> would doubt them.

643
00:35:16,614 --> 00:35:18,914
Remember, I'm the one who
when I went into the jail

644
00:35:18,983 --> 00:35:21,117
at the age of nine,
I said to the guard,

645
00:35:21,186 --> 00:35:22,597
"can I see
the electric chair?"

646
00:35:22,621 --> 00:35:23,920
You wanted to...

647
00:35:23,989 --> 00:35:24,989
I wasn't afraid.

648
00:35:25,057 --> 00:35:26,789
I wanted to show
I wasn't afraid of it.

649
00:35:26,858 --> 00:35:28,658
Also remember I was young.

650
00:35:28,727 --> 00:35:30,226
I didn't know.

651
00:35:30,295 --> 00:35:32,762
Well, they weren't scared.

652
00:35:32,831 --> 00:35:35,568
Every time we saw them
they weren't scared.

653
00:35:42,007 --> 00:35:43,647
And here we are,
must have been in may.

654
00:35:43,675 --> 00:35:45,007
Flowers for Mother's Day.

655
00:35:45,076 --> 00:35:48,511
We got out of the
parking lot at Sing Sing.

656
00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:49,891
The newspaper reporters got us.

657
00:35:49,915 --> 00:35:51,547
Look at how happy Robby is.

658
00:35:51,616 --> 00:35:53,048
He's going to see mommy.

659
00:35:53,117 --> 00:35:55,084
That's really a great testimony

660
00:35:55,153 --> 00:35:57,386
to how pleasant and
wonderful the visits were.

661
00:35:57,455 --> 00:35:59,467
Which they were, I mean,
they were really important.

662
00:35:59,491 --> 00:36:03,592
And this is the letter
I wrote to eisenhower.

663
00:36:03,661 --> 00:36:06,095
Do you remember
writing the letter?

664
00:36:06,164 --> 00:36:07,642
Oh, absolutely, I remember
writing the letter.

665
00:36:07,666 --> 00:36:09,065
How did that come about?

666
00:36:09,134 --> 00:36:10,966
Somebody gave me
a piece of paper

667
00:36:11,035 --> 00:36:15,842
with a typed script on it
and said, "please copy this."

668
00:36:20,412 --> 00:36:23,179
I went down to Washington
for a demonstration.

669
00:36:23,248 --> 00:36:25,315
Handed the letter
to the white house guard.

670
00:36:25,384 --> 00:36:26,995
On film.

671
00:36:27,019 --> 00:36:31,858
Got a chance
to say "no comment."

672
00:36:32,758 --> 00:36:35,324
Do you remember feeling
like this letter

673
00:36:35,393 --> 00:36:37,460
could actually change something?

674
00:36:37,529 --> 00:36:38,427
I didn't.

675
00:36:38,496 --> 00:36:43,233
No, I knew that there
were a lot of people

676
00:36:43,302 --> 00:36:44,901
trying to get clemency.

677
00:36:44,970 --> 00:36:46,635
And I, you know,

678
00:36:46,704 --> 00:36:51,110
I just was hoping against hope
that it would work.

679
00:36:52,978 --> 00:36:54,847
Wow.

680
00:36:58,950 --> 00:37:02,051
So when you knew Ethel,
was it already clear

681
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,488
that no one in the family

682
00:37:05,557 --> 00:37:08,124
was going to take care
of my father?

683
00:37:08,193 --> 00:37:10,626
No, it was not.

684
00:37:10,695 --> 00:37:15,297
Sometime during that period,
her mother took the boys,

685
00:37:15,366 --> 00:37:18,367
but the social worker took
the boys away from her mother

686
00:37:18,436 --> 00:37:21,504
because she was
screaming at them,

687
00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:23,717
and she was telling them...

688
00:37:23,741 --> 00:37:26,342
you know these
were children who...

689
00:37:26,411 --> 00:37:28,811
young and missing their parents,

690
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,481
and there must have
been some misbehavior

691
00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:33,783
she couldn't cope with,
and she screamed at them,

692
00:37:33,852 --> 00:37:36,585
"you're gonna end up
in the electric chair

693
00:37:36,654 --> 00:37:38,333
just like your parents."

694
00:37:38,357 --> 00:37:40,189
So when I knew her,

695
00:37:40,258 --> 00:37:44,093
they were already
in a children's shelter.

696
00:37:44,162 --> 00:37:46,261
And that was
a pretty chaotic thing.

697
00:37:46,330 --> 00:37:49,065
I don't know if they
ever talk about it, but...

698
00:37:49,134 --> 00:37:52,935
My father remembers that as one
of the worst times of his life.

699
00:37:53,004 --> 00:37:58,908
Right, it was one of the worst
times of his mother's life.

700
00:37:58,977 --> 00:38:01,844
You know, if I really think
honestly about what led me

701
00:38:01,913 --> 00:38:05,214
to start looking at the family
more closely was first

702
00:38:05,283 --> 00:38:08,283
when I realized
how many siblings

703
00:38:08,352 --> 00:38:10,887
there were of Ethel and Julius',
and then saying,

704
00:38:10,956 --> 00:38:14,556
well, where were these people

705
00:38:14,625 --> 00:38:19,098
and why didn't anyone
take in my dad and Robby?

706
00:38:20,531 --> 00:38:22,065
Hello, my name's Ivy Meeropol.

707
00:38:22,134 --> 00:38:24,868
I'm Michael Meeropol's daughter.

708
00:38:26,939 --> 00:38:29,338
I'm good, how are you?

709
00:38:29,407 --> 00:38:34,844
So, um, I've actually
been trying to track down

710
00:38:34,913 --> 00:38:38,314
family members and meet people

711
00:38:38,383 --> 00:38:41,617
that no one in my family's
ever, ever spoken to.

712
00:38:41,686 --> 00:38:44,053
What do you think
about me trying to talk

713
00:38:44,122 --> 00:38:46,022
to some of these relatives?

714
00:38:46,091 --> 00:38:47,190
I think that's fine.

715
00:38:47,259 --> 00:38:50,594
I don't know if you're
gonna make any friends.

716
00:38:50,663 --> 00:38:52,762
Right.

717
00:38:52,831 --> 00:38:55,198
Would you even consider
talking on the phone with me

718
00:38:55,267 --> 00:38:57,099
and letting,
so that I would have

719
00:38:57,168 --> 00:38:59,035
the stories just from you

720
00:38:59,104 --> 00:39:01,070
and that I wouldn't have to...

721
00:39:01,139 --> 00:39:03,172
Oh, you wouldn't even
want your voice involved?

722
00:39:03,241 --> 00:39:06,209
And you don't want
to talk about them,

723
00:39:06,278 --> 00:39:08,078
because they're too painful?

724
00:39:08,147 --> 00:39:09,378
Right.

725
00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:10,780
No, I don't...

726
00:39:10,849 --> 00:39:12,248
I have to be honest,

727
00:39:12,317 --> 00:39:13,917
a lot of people don't
want to talk to me.

728
00:39:13,952 --> 00:39:17,620
People are, I mean,
they're afraid.

729
00:39:17,689 --> 00:39:20,122
I mean, maybe I came
into this a little naively

730
00:39:20,191 --> 00:39:22,691
thinking what, 50 years later,

731
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,895
why can't we overcome this
great divide in our family

732
00:39:25,964 --> 00:39:29,131
and talk about what happened?

733
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,102
Uncle Oscar,
aunt Ethel's husband

734
00:39:33,171 --> 00:39:36,338
was scared out of his tree when
his brother-in-law was arrested

735
00:39:36,407 --> 00:39:40,176
and that was why they
didn't do anything public

736
00:39:40,245 --> 00:39:42,077
like take Robby and me in

737
00:39:42,146 --> 00:39:44,513
because it would have
ruined their business,

738
00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:45,515
their local business.

739
00:39:45,584 --> 00:39:47,850
They probably would have
lost all their customers,

740
00:39:47,919 --> 00:39:50,553
and aunt Ethel
never forgave herself,

741
00:39:50,622 --> 00:39:53,456
and she thought in fact that
Robby and I were angry at her,

742
00:39:53,525 --> 00:39:56,058
and we never were angry
at her for doing it at all,

743
00:39:56,127 --> 00:39:58,472
you know, but she thought that.

744
00:39:58,496 --> 00:39:59,828
For what not taking you in?

745
00:39:59,897 --> 00:40:02,009
For not taking us in,
but we understood that totally.

746
00:40:02,033 --> 00:40:07,036
Well, I was calling
because I have been trying

747
00:40:07,105 --> 00:40:11,774
to track down where some of
my grandparents things might be

748
00:40:11,843 --> 00:40:14,476
'cause I know that aunt Ethel

749
00:40:14,545 --> 00:40:17,713
had gotten some of their
things after they died.

750
00:40:17,782 --> 00:40:21,250
Uhh, well, Ethel's shoes,

751
00:40:21,319 --> 00:40:23,986
I saw photographs
at her apartment,

752
00:40:24,055 --> 00:40:28,461
of her showing that
she had Ethel's shoes.

753
00:40:32,164 --> 00:40:36,765
Well, it's not about,

754
00:40:36,834 --> 00:40:39,969
it's not about
benefiting myself,

755
00:40:40,038 --> 00:40:42,838
it's about just finding
out more information.

756
00:40:42,907 --> 00:40:45,841
Oh yeah, of course,
I've called everyone.

757
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:47,843
I've called everyone
on the Greenglass side

758
00:40:47,912 --> 00:40:49,645
and the Rosenberg side.

759
00:40:49,714 --> 00:40:52,515
Everyone in the family
seems to be ashamed

760
00:40:52,584 --> 00:40:55,184
of who, you know,
who we all are.

761
00:40:55,253 --> 00:41:00,088
Well, I think that's
really, when you said,

762
00:41:00,157 --> 00:41:05,394
"what does it tell you that
nobody wants to talk about it?"

763
00:41:05,463 --> 00:41:10,133
You know, it tells me how bad

764
00:41:10,202 --> 00:41:12,968
it must have been, really.

765
00:41:13,037 --> 00:41:18,344
It's... I guess just
hard to accept, for me.

766
00:41:28,786 --> 00:41:31,988
This is my grandfather,
Julius Rosenberg,

767
00:41:32,057 --> 00:41:35,691
who my brother's middle name
was named after.

768
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,130
And this is Julius and
Ethel Rosenberg together,

769
00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:44,667
and my middle name
was named after Ethel.

770
00:41:44,736 --> 00:41:47,303
This is the TV news

771
00:41:47,372 --> 00:41:49,972
and we're interviewing
Jenny Meeropol here.

772
00:41:50,041 --> 00:41:52,476
How old are you, Jenny?

773
00:41:52,545 --> 00:41:53,576
Five and a half.

774
00:41:53,645 --> 00:41:56,646
What are your parents' names?

775
00:41:56,715 --> 00:41:58,113
Ellie and Robby.

776
00:41:58,182 --> 00:42:01,217
I'm Ivy Meeropol, and I'm
interviewing Greg Meeropol.

777
00:42:01,286 --> 00:42:03,152
How old are you, Greg?

778
00:42:03,221 --> 00:42:06,055
Seven and...
eight and a half.

779
00:42:06,124 --> 00:42:08,457
Do you have any
sisters or brothers?

780
00:42:08,526 --> 00:42:12,198
Yes, I have a sister, Ivy.

781
00:42:14,165 --> 00:42:16,365
You know, this was a family
that I was brought into,

782
00:42:16,434 --> 00:42:19,368
and that I only
think of you know,

783
00:42:19,437 --> 00:42:21,404
mom and dad as my mom and dad.

784
00:42:21,473 --> 00:42:22,939
The woman who gave birth to me

785
00:42:23,008 --> 00:42:24,641
just did that, gave birth to me,

786
00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:26,943
and I just feel that
this is my family

787
00:42:27,012 --> 00:42:28,744
and I would die for them,

788
00:42:28,813 --> 00:42:31,180
and even though I never
met Julius and Ethel,

789
00:42:31,249 --> 00:42:33,249
I still have that, you know,
that passion for them,

790
00:42:33,284 --> 00:42:35,955
and you know,
and will defend them.

791
00:42:41,827 --> 00:42:43,459
Sunnyvale, California.

792
00:42:43,528 --> 00:42:47,830
This is a long way from
the Lower East Side, huh?

793
00:42:47,899 --> 00:42:50,166
That's where
his family's from...

794
00:42:50,235 --> 00:42:52,171
our family's from, I should say.

795
00:42:53,671 --> 00:42:55,771
We're going
to meet baron Roberts.

796
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,275
He is Julius' brother,
David's son,

797
00:42:59,344 --> 00:43:01,877
but they changed
their name to Roberts.

798
00:43:01,946 --> 00:43:04,313
This is the first
relative of mine

799
00:43:04,382 --> 00:43:06,082
that I've met
on the Rosenberg side.

800
00:43:06,151 --> 00:43:08,584
Hi!

801
00:43:08,653 --> 00:43:11,554
How are you doing?

802
00:43:11,623 --> 00:43:12,855
I'm good how are you?

803
00:43:12,924 --> 00:43:13,924
Good.

804
00:43:13,992 --> 00:43:15,302
I know, "don't look
at the camera".

805
00:43:15,326 --> 00:43:16,660
Don't mind my friend.

806
00:43:16,729 --> 00:43:18,428
Come in.

807
00:43:18,497 --> 00:43:20,564
This is sue, my wife.

808
00:43:20,633 --> 00:43:23,066
Hi.

809
00:43:23,135 --> 00:43:25,435
I'm Ivy.

810
00:43:25,504 --> 00:43:27,136
I'm Olivia.

811
00:43:27,205 --> 00:43:30,740
Okay, folks, and we're
back to the show.

812
00:43:30,809 --> 00:43:32,508
We're back.

813
00:43:32,577 --> 00:43:34,944
So, how does it feel
to meet a new cousin?

814
00:43:35,013 --> 00:43:36,445
That's me.

815
00:43:36,514 --> 00:43:39,782
Well, I just don't
get that family part.

816
00:43:39,851 --> 00:43:43,886
Right, your grandpa
on your dad's side

817
00:43:43,955 --> 00:43:47,023
was the brother of my grandpa.

818
00:43:47,092 --> 00:43:49,158
Interesting.

819
00:43:49,227 --> 00:43:53,429
And so, my dad's dad
was named Julius,

820
00:43:53,498 --> 00:43:55,130
and they were brothers.

821
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:58,301
And you heard the whole story
about what happened to Julius.

822
00:43:58,370 --> 00:44:00,270
It was a very sad story.

823
00:44:00,339 --> 00:44:01,571
He "bzzz".

824
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,872
Ohh, yeah.

825
00:44:02,941 --> 00:44:04,540
"Bzzz."

826
00:44:04,609 --> 00:44:07,576
That must be really sad,
to grandpa.

827
00:44:07,645 --> 00:44:10,980
It was very sad
for your grandpa.

828
00:44:11,049 --> 00:44:14,787
I think he was sad for the rest
of his life because of that.

829
00:44:16,288 --> 00:44:18,387
You know, I've been
curious about why

830
00:44:18,456 --> 00:44:23,393
your dad changed your name
from Rosenberg to Roberts.

831
00:44:23,462 --> 00:44:25,928
Yeah, I'd asked him about that

832
00:44:25,997 --> 00:44:28,964
and while he didn't
talk too much in detail

833
00:44:29,033 --> 00:44:31,167
about any of the background,

834
00:44:31,236 --> 00:44:33,335
he did say that
after the execution,

835
00:44:33,404 --> 00:44:37,840
he was feeling like it's
just not the right thing

836
00:44:37,909 --> 00:44:40,243
to have that name right now,
and he was concerned about,

837
00:44:40,312 --> 00:44:42,545
you know, his future,

838
00:44:42,614 --> 00:44:45,548
and so he changed it to Roberts.

839
00:44:45,617 --> 00:44:47,917
Now, how much of that was also
the influence of my mother,

840
00:44:47,986 --> 00:44:51,420
because she was the more
paranoid about things,

841
00:44:51,489 --> 00:44:54,323
but at that time
everybody was paranoid.

842
00:44:54,392 --> 00:44:58,361
What was the story that she
would tell about my grandmother

843
00:44:58,430 --> 00:45:03,666
asking she and your dad
to take in my dad and Robby?

844
00:45:03,735 --> 00:45:07,036
She would put on
a sort of stoic veneer

845
00:45:07,105 --> 00:45:09,772
and talk about how
she went up to Sing Sing

846
00:45:09,841 --> 00:45:11,874
at Ethel's request,

847
00:45:11,943 --> 00:45:13,676
and that Ethel had asked her

848
00:45:13,745 --> 00:45:18,948
to adopt your father
and your uncle

849
00:45:19,017 --> 00:45:22,284
and she said, "no."
That's how she related it,

850
00:45:22,353 --> 00:45:25,821
and as a kid, again,
I heard this a million times,

851
00:45:25,890 --> 00:45:27,990
how she'd keep repeating it.

852
00:45:28,059 --> 00:45:33,095
And it was so clear,
especially looking back on it,

853
00:45:33,164 --> 00:45:34,810
this was eating her up inside.

854
00:45:34,834 --> 00:45:35,965
Yeah.

855
00:45:36,034 --> 00:45:37,345
But I do feel a sense of,

856
00:45:37,369 --> 00:45:40,036
somewhat shame for
my mother's behavior,

857
00:45:40,105 --> 00:45:44,540
not adopting your
father and your uncle.

858
00:45:44,609 --> 00:45:46,175
That was the other thing,

859
00:45:46,244 --> 00:45:47,543
when I started
looking into this:

860
00:45:47,612 --> 00:45:49,946
It was, nobody went
to their funeral.

861
00:45:50,015 --> 00:45:53,250
Except for grandma Sophie.

862
00:45:53,319 --> 00:45:54,483
You're kidding?

863
00:45:54,552 --> 00:45:55,964
My father didn't
go to their funeral?

864
00:45:55,988 --> 00:45:56,988
No.

865
00:45:57,055 --> 00:45:58,799
It's funny because
I'm sitting here

866
00:45:58,823 --> 00:46:01,258
talking to you about how these
people should apologize and...

867
00:46:01,327 --> 00:46:03,727
I'm sorry.

868
00:46:03,796 --> 00:46:04,994
I know.

869
00:46:05,063 --> 00:46:07,330
It's like, I'm the one
who should apologize.

870
00:46:07,399 --> 00:46:08,864
Why you shouldn't...

871
00:46:08,933 --> 00:46:10,145
there's no reason
you should apologize.

872
00:46:10,169 --> 00:46:12,034
Who's left to apologize?

873
00:46:12,103 --> 00:46:13,573
Well, that's true.

874
00:46:19,011 --> 00:46:20,343
It's true.

875
00:46:20,412 --> 00:46:21,577
I know.

876
00:46:21,646 --> 00:46:22,646
I was gonna apologize.

877
00:46:22,713 --> 00:46:24,725
Some people won't even talk
to you, that's ridiculous.

878
00:46:24,749 --> 00:46:26,549
You know, so I'm sorry.

879
00:46:26,618 --> 00:46:29,121
It's unacceptable.

880
00:46:47,906 --> 00:46:50,206
It's that corner house
with the air conditioner,

881
00:46:50,275 --> 00:46:51,919
I remember seeing
the air conditioner

882
00:46:51,943 --> 00:46:53,721
it's the corner with
the air conditioner.

883
00:46:53,745 --> 00:46:54,810
There it is.

884
00:46:54,879 --> 00:46:57,458
Building "g" that's what it is,
it's 11-e in building "g".

885
00:46:57,482 --> 00:46:59,348
General electric.

886
00:46:59,417 --> 00:47:01,383
Is that how you remember it?

887
00:47:01,452 --> 00:47:02,852
No, that's what mom said.

888
00:47:02,887 --> 00:47:05,855
Mom would always
call it general electric.

889
00:47:05,924 --> 00:47:08,424
And that's how you
would remember it?

890
00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:10,626
No, that's how I've
remembered it now.

891
00:47:10,695 --> 00:47:13,562
Then, I just, you know,
this was the building

892
00:47:13,631 --> 00:47:15,868
you came in through the stairs
and you walked in here.

893
00:47:16,902 --> 00:47:18,067
Hello.

894
00:47:18,136 --> 00:47:19,001
Hello, Mr. Lin?

895
00:47:19,070 --> 00:47:22,005
This is the meeropols
we're coming up to 11-e.

896
00:47:22,074 --> 00:47:23,138
Okay.

897
00:47:23,207 --> 00:47:24,487
Thank you, could you buzz us in?

898
00:47:26,512 --> 00:47:27,409
Thank you.

899
00:47:27,478 --> 00:47:29,812
And the elevator is
the same damn elevator.

900
00:47:29,881 --> 00:47:31,914
Slow down, dad.

901
00:47:31,983 --> 00:47:33,116
No way.

902
00:47:33,185 --> 00:47:35,051
I have no slow in me.

903
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,054
You're real excited, dad?

904
00:47:39,558 --> 00:47:41,891
Yes, luckily this
will be edited.

905
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,960
Let's be dignified.

906
00:47:44,029 --> 00:47:45,427
Dignified.

907
00:47:45,496 --> 00:47:49,031
Actually when you think about it

908
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:51,012
those fucking FBI agents
rode this same damn elevator.

909
00:47:51,036 --> 00:47:52,969
That's true.

910
00:47:53,038 --> 00:47:56,439
On June, whatever
it was, July 17th.

911
00:47:56,508 --> 00:47:57,807
Maybe more than once.

912
00:47:57,876 --> 00:48:00,713
Yeah, twice.

913
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:03,012
Hello, I'm Ivy.

914
00:48:03,081 --> 00:48:04,781
Thank you so much.

915
00:48:04,850 --> 00:48:06,649
Thank you, Robert.

916
00:48:06,718 --> 00:48:08,550
Hi, I'm Michael, how do you do?

917
00:48:08,619 --> 00:48:11,624
Thank you so much
for letting us do this.

918
00:48:14,459 --> 00:48:16,259
My name is Michael,
thank you very much.

919
00:48:19,264 --> 00:48:20,763
I can't pronounce well.

920
00:48:20,832 --> 00:48:24,133
How do you do, this is
my brother, Robert.

921
00:48:24,202 --> 00:48:25,634
Do you know the story?

922
00:48:25,703 --> 00:48:29,472
I don't know, your parents...

923
00:48:29,541 --> 00:48:30,606
We were very young...

924
00:48:30,675 --> 00:48:33,209
Our parents lived
in this apartment

925
00:48:33,278 --> 00:48:35,211
and we were very
young children here.

926
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,415
And they were arrested
when we were very young,

927
00:48:39,484 --> 00:48:43,152
and so we then
left the apartment.

928
00:48:43,221 --> 00:48:44,453
Do you remember?

929
00:48:44,522 --> 00:48:45,600
I do, because
I was seven years old.

930
00:48:45,624 --> 00:48:47,390
This was the living room.

931
00:48:47,459 --> 00:48:49,258
This was the living room
and the dining room

932
00:48:49,327 --> 00:48:51,394
and the console table
was probably right there,

933
00:48:51,463 --> 00:48:53,107
but I don't remember that.

934
00:48:53,131 --> 00:48:54,831
Wanna go in the kitchen?

935
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:56,165
Sure.

936
00:48:56,234 --> 00:48:58,534
This is the famous
picture right?

937
00:48:58,603 --> 00:49:01,037
Yes, that's right, absolutely,
there is a famous picture.

938
00:49:01,106 --> 00:49:02,584
That's probably
a new refrigerator.

939
00:49:02,608 --> 00:49:06,042
But the sink is
probably the same.

940
00:49:06,111 --> 00:49:08,778
That's amazing.

941
00:49:08,847 --> 00:49:11,247
Yeah, that's the sink.

942
00:49:11,316 --> 00:49:12,815
I bet that's the same sink.

943
00:49:12,884 --> 00:49:14,850
There's a relatively
famous picture

944
00:49:14,919 --> 00:49:18,454
where your grandmother made
that very substantial gesture

945
00:49:18,523 --> 00:49:21,256
in an effort to fight back
against the propaganda.

946
00:49:21,325 --> 00:49:24,927
She had to show herself as a
good wife and mother in the kitchen.

947
00:49:24,996 --> 00:49:27,764
Right, and that we are
just ordinary Americans

948
00:49:27,833 --> 00:49:29,577
and we don't know
anything about this stuff

949
00:49:29,601 --> 00:49:34,070
which was a great show
of loyalty with dad in jail.

950
00:49:34,139 --> 00:49:36,205
That was very, very crucial.

951
00:49:36,274 --> 00:49:37,840
Didn't work of course.

952
00:49:37,909 --> 00:49:42,479
She was standing there in a
house dress with a dish towel.

953
00:49:42,548 --> 00:49:44,047
Yeah, yeah.

954
00:49:44,116 --> 00:49:45,247
Dish towel.

955
00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:48,817
That's right,
right at that spot.

956
00:49:48,886 --> 00:49:51,721
Right absolutely at that spot,
really something.

957
00:49:51,790 --> 00:49:54,156
I'm just impressed with
how hot it is,

958
00:49:54,225 --> 00:49:56,258
I mean, I just keep
thinking about, boy.

959
00:49:56,327 --> 00:49:58,160
What it must have
been like in the summer.

960
00:49:58,229 --> 00:50:00,362
There are two rooms.

961
00:50:00,431 --> 00:50:02,632
I thought there
was another room.

962
00:50:02,701 --> 00:50:04,333
This is the craziest thing.

963
00:50:04,402 --> 00:50:08,638
I was absolutely positive
that there were two rooms here.

964
00:50:08,707 --> 00:50:10,840
This is my room,
my bed was right there.

965
00:50:10,909 --> 00:50:12,608
So you had the bedroom.

966
00:50:12,677 --> 00:50:14,157
I had the bedroom,
and you must have

967
00:50:14,212 --> 00:50:16,279
maybe had a crib
in here somewhere.

968
00:50:16,348 --> 00:50:17,680
Mmm-hmm.

969
00:50:17,749 --> 00:50:19,448
And they slept out in the...

970
00:50:19,517 --> 00:50:22,886
It's unbelievable,
kids think of themselves

971
00:50:22,955 --> 00:50:24,420
as the center of
the damn universe.

972
00:50:24,489 --> 00:50:28,424
And I didn't... I assumed
they had another bedroom,

973
00:50:28,493 --> 00:50:31,060
and all they had
was the living room.

974
00:50:31,129 --> 00:50:32,895
Unbelievable.

975
00:50:32,964 --> 00:50:34,830
It was really fun
living in here,

976
00:50:34,899 --> 00:50:36,765
the outside stuff, in the park,

977
00:50:36,834 --> 00:50:41,270
walking around in the courtyard
and being in this apartment.

978
00:50:41,339 --> 00:50:44,107
All aspects of it
were really nice.

979
00:50:44,176 --> 00:50:46,709
So you remember it
as a happy time.

980
00:50:46,778 --> 00:50:48,711
Absolutely, it was very happy.

981
00:50:48,780 --> 00:50:51,147
But I did, I mean, certainly...

982
00:50:51,216 --> 00:50:52,982
I got a jolt
when I thought about

983
00:50:53,051 --> 00:50:54,883
those FBI agents
in that elevator.

984
00:50:54,952 --> 00:50:57,720
Because you... where
were you when they came in?

985
00:50:57,789 --> 00:51:00,924
I was right in the front there
by the window, sitting down,

986
00:51:00,993 --> 00:51:02,658
may have been
even in the kitchen

987
00:51:02,727 --> 00:51:04,239
because that was
where the radio was,

988
00:51:04,263 --> 00:51:06,141
listening to the radio.

989
00:51:06,165 --> 00:51:08,263
Listening to "the lone ranger"

990
00:51:08,332 --> 00:51:11,701
and that was the thing with
they turned the radio off,

991
00:51:11,770 --> 00:51:13,280
I turned it on...

992
00:51:13,304 --> 00:51:15,405
And I don't know how
many of them there were,

993
00:51:15,474 --> 00:51:17,974
maybe there were four
of them or three of them

994
00:51:18,043 --> 00:51:19,875
and they filled the place up,

995
00:51:19,944 --> 00:51:22,578
because it seemed like the place
was just mobbed with people.

996
00:51:22,647 --> 00:51:24,447
Yeah, in fact,

997
00:51:24,516 --> 00:51:27,250
I did think that the FBI agents

998
00:51:27,319 --> 00:51:28,762
when they walked in at first

999
00:51:28,786 --> 00:51:31,722
were some of daddy's friends
until they arrested him.

1000
00:51:31,791 --> 00:51:33,589
God.

1001
00:51:33,658 --> 00:51:35,758
I asked mom
"is daddy coming home?"

1002
00:51:35,827 --> 00:51:37,159
She said
"not tonight."

1003
00:51:37,228 --> 00:51:38,739
I remember saying
to the FBI agent,

1004
00:51:38,763 --> 00:51:41,330
I listen to you on the radio,
or something like that.

1005
00:51:41,399 --> 00:51:43,644
Then that was it he was never
in this apartment again?

1006
00:51:43,668 --> 00:51:46,635
Never in this apartment
again, that's right.

1007
00:51:46,704 --> 00:51:49,016
After July 17th, 1950,
he never saw this apartment.

1008
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,941
Unbelievable.

1009
00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:53,710
Wow.

1010
00:51:53,779 --> 00:51:57,216
Thank you for doing this, dear.

1011
00:52:18,536 --> 00:52:21,437
This is the story
of the atomic spies.

1012
00:52:21,506 --> 00:52:24,239
There probably has never
been an espionage operation

1013
00:52:24,308 --> 00:52:27,210
that so profoundly changed
the course of world politics.

1014
00:52:27,279 --> 00:52:30,647
Spies: Julius
and Ethel Rosenberg.

1015
00:52:30,716 --> 00:52:34,216
Code names:
Liberal and Ethel.

1016
00:52:34,285 --> 00:52:37,587
Provided Soviets with stolen
defensive military documents.

1017
00:52:37,656 --> 00:52:41,090
Suspicion: Julius Rosenberg
an anchored spy,

1018
00:52:41,159 --> 00:52:44,797
Ethel Rosenberg
as a supportive wife.

1019
00:52:46,598 --> 00:52:49,265
I would argue that
the reason we're talking about

1020
00:52:49,334 --> 00:52:51,100
the Rosenberg case today,
50 years later,

1021
00:52:51,169 --> 00:52:52,880
is because of the secret
of the atomic bomb.

1022
00:52:52,904 --> 00:52:54,249
Without the secret
of the atomic bomb

1023
00:52:54,273 --> 00:52:56,139
we wouldn't be talking about it.

1024
00:52:56,208 --> 00:52:57,840
That's the core of the case,

1025
00:52:57,909 --> 00:52:59,441
that's why there
were executions.

1026
00:52:59,510 --> 00:53:01,910
That's why they said
they were innocent.

1027
00:53:01,979 --> 00:53:03,557
And that's why they said
they were innocent

1028
00:53:03,581 --> 00:53:06,716
because they didn't do
the thing they were killed for.

1029
00:53:06,785 --> 00:53:08,483
And that's the key.

1030
00:53:08,552 --> 00:53:11,186
FBI close down,
open up the files!

1031
00:53:11,255 --> 00:53:15,090
FBI close down, open up
the files!

1032
00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:18,761
FBI close down,
open up the files!

1033
00:53:18,830 --> 00:53:20,229
I'm not afraid.

1034
00:53:20,298 --> 00:53:21,675
It's the government
that holds back the files.

1035
00:53:21,699 --> 00:53:23,077
We filed the request
that said, let it all out.

1036
00:53:23,101 --> 00:53:25,134
You know, what we'd done
had demonstrated

1037
00:53:25,203 --> 00:53:26,068
that they were framed.

1038
00:53:26,137 --> 00:53:27,937
And that's not the same
as demonstrating

1039
00:53:28,006 --> 00:53:29,405
that someone's innocent.

1040
00:53:29,474 --> 00:53:32,208
All of our research
showed what didn't happen.

1041
00:53:32,277 --> 00:53:35,177
It really showed that
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg

1042
00:53:35,246 --> 00:53:37,079
didn't steal the secret
of the atomic bomb.

1043
00:53:37,148 --> 00:53:40,149
But it didn't show what if
anything actually happened.

1044
00:53:40,218 --> 00:53:42,388
What<i> did</i> happen?

1045
00:53:49,994 --> 00:53:53,329
In 1995, a man
called up and said

1046
00:53:53,398 --> 00:53:56,365
I just heard from
my contacts at the CIA

1047
00:53:56,434 --> 00:54:00,036
that in a few minutes
they're going to release

1048
00:54:00,105 --> 00:54:01,771
the venona information

1049
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,039
and I said,
"thank you very much,"

1050
00:54:04,108 --> 00:54:08,110
and next thing we knew
the phone rang,

1051
00:54:08,179 --> 00:54:09,712
and it was some reporters
and they said

1052
00:54:09,781 --> 00:54:11,747
this has just been released

1053
00:54:11,816 --> 00:54:13,193
do you want to make a statement?

1054
00:54:13,217 --> 00:54:14,295
What do you think about it?

1055
00:54:14,319 --> 00:54:18,253
And we thought about it
and said what do we want to do?

1056
00:54:18,322 --> 00:54:21,023
Venona was deciphered
Soviet documents

1057
00:54:21,092 --> 00:54:25,495
that had been picked up
in this country,

1058
00:54:25,564 --> 00:54:27,163
and over a period of time

1059
00:54:27,232 --> 00:54:31,103
deciphered by
the national security agency.

1060
00:54:31,435 --> 00:54:34,369
At CIA headquarters today,
the government revealed

1061
00:54:34,438 --> 00:54:37,173
top secret documents
tightly held for 50 years,

1062
00:54:37,242 --> 00:54:40,342
Soviet messages
intercepted by the U.S.

1063
00:54:40,411 --> 00:54:43,012
Putting the FBI
on the Rosenberg's trail.

1064
00:54:43,081 --> 00:54:45,013
September 1944...

1065
00:54:45,082 --> 00:54:48,884
Julius Rosenberg was code named
"antenna" and later "liberal".

1066
00:54:48,953 --> 00:54:50,787
He is described
as being so active

1067
00:54:50,856 --> 00:54:53,489
his Soviet handlers
worried about his health.

1068
00:54:53,558 --> 00:54:55,992
Ethel Rosenberg
is mentioned only once

1069
00:54:56,061 --> 00:54:58,461
as knowing about
her husband's work

1070
00:54:58,530 --> 00:55:00,864
and being well-developed
politically.

1071
00:55:00,933 --> 00:55:03,500
Venona didn't prove
a damn thing.

1072
00:55:03,569 --> 00:55:04,900
This is a joke.

1073
00:55:04,969 --> 00:55:07,837
They tried to attribute
to me a name

1074
00:55:07,906 --> 00:55:10,773
and then by the fourth message

1075
00:55:10,842 --> 00:55:13,309
it turns out that
"rel" and "sib"

1076
00:55:13,378 --> 00:55:15,344
has an artificial leg.

1077
00:55:15,413 --> 00:55:20,583
So, I always complain
here I am a convicted spy

1078
00:55:20,652 --> 00:55:22,851
and they don't have me in there,

1079
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:24,365
and they have a couple
hundred other people

1080
00:55:24,389 --> 00:55:26,500
who've not been convicted in
there that they could identify.

1081
00:55:26,524 --> 00:55:29,425
So there isn't
any justice in this.

1082
00:55:31,329 --> 00:55:34,264
The government is trying
to close this case desperately,

1083
00:55:34,333 --> 00:55:37,633
they want to get it
off they're necks.

1084
00:55:37,702 --> 00:55:41,004
I've been making it
more difficult.

1085
00:55:41,073 --> 00:55:43,372
That I figure is my job.

1086
00:55:43,441 --> 00:55:47,376
There's always
been the element of

1087
00:55:47,445 --> 00:55:49,745
when are we gonna
know everything

1088
00:55:49,814 --> 00:55:52,048
from the beginning.

1089
00:55:52,117 --> 00:55:54,317
There's so much that's unknown,

1090
00:55:54,386 --> 00:55:56,518
and what will
new information bring?

1091
00:55:56,587 --> 00:56:00,957
So, if you look at it that way
a lot of the new information

1092
00:56:01,026 --> 00:56:05,060
over the last 10-15 years or so,

1093
00:56:05,129 --> 00:56:08,898
has been filtered
through the government

1094
00:56:08,967 --> 00:56:12,234
so remaining somewhat skeptical
is not a bad thing.

1095
00:56:12,303 --> 00:56:16,738
There's a gray area where
a reasonable case can be made

1096
00:56:16,807 --> 00:56:20,809
that Julius Rosenberg with
Ethel Rosenberg's approval,

1097
00:56:20,878 --> 00:56:27,878
engaged in military industrial
espionage during world war ii,

1098
00:56:27,952 --> 00:56:32,888
but a reasonable case
can also be made that

1099
00:56:32,957 --> 00:56:35,291
the facts that point to this

1100
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,927
are government created
disinformation

1101
00:56:37,996 --> 00:56:40,608
to justify
my parents' execution.

1102
00:56:40,632 --> 00:56:44,868
Figuring those two things out

1103
00:56:44,937 --> 00:56:47,369
is very difficult.

1104
00:56:47,438 --> 00:56:51,207
Until venona documents
themselves came out in '95,

1105
00:56:51,276 --> 00:56:54,010
I never thought
there was anything to them

1106
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:55,978
that would, you know, harm us.

1107
00:56:56,047 --> 00:56:58,247
I thought it would,
if anything, help us.

1108
00:56:58,316 --> 00:57:01,450
But then when
they came out in 1995

1109
00:57:01,519 --> 00:57:03,853
it was very clear
that if your grandfather

1110
00:57:03,922 --> 00:57:08,291
was "liberal" then he did stuff.

1111
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:12,962
Well, I'm curious how you guys
didn't just write the book

1112
00:57:13,031 --> 00:57:17,500
you also were really the
champions of Rosenberg innocence

1113
00:57:17,569 --> 00:57:19,146
for such a long time.

1114
00:57:19,170 --> 00:57:22,872
How did it feel when you
started to question that...

1115
00:57:22,941 --> 00:57:24,974
I felt pretty bad.

1116
00:57:25,043 --> 00:57:26,909
Pretty damn bad.

1117
00:57:26,978 --> 00:57:31,113
I did go through a period of
sort of feeling angry with them.

1118
00:57:31,182 --> 00:57:34,683
It seems stupid,
sort of feeling...

1119
00:57:34,752 --> 00:57:36,319
"How could you have
done this to me?"

1120
00:57:36,388 --> 00:57:37,520
You know...

1121
00:57:37,589 --> 00:57:41,624
And you were always
brought up to believe

1122
00:57:41,693 --> 00:57:43,593
they were completely innocent.

1123
00:57:43,662 --> 00:57:46,563
Have you changed your mind?

1124
00:57:46,632 --> 00:57:49,064
I don't know, it depends on

1125
00:57:49,133 --> 00:57:52,268
what week you're
asking me sometimes.

1126
00:57:52,337 --> 00:57:53,803
It really is true.

1127
00:57:53,872 --> 00:57:55,304
Sometimes I think

1128
00:57:55,373 --> 00:57:57,473
they must have
been doing something,

1129
00:57:57,542 --> 00:58:00,243
then other times I think
and I read their letters

1130
00:58:00,312 --> 00:58:04,781
and I think how could
they say to my father...

1131
00:58:04,850 --> 00:58:09,055
Yeah, his question also.

1132
00:58:17,062 --> 00:58:20,133
A little privacy.

1133
00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:22,632
Here they are.

1134
00:58:22,701 --> 00:58:24,567
They don't give us
much room in here.

1135
00:58:24,636 --> 00:58:25,835
Look at that.

1136
00:58:25,904 --> 00:58:28,204
Look at that.

1137
00:58:28,273 --> 00:58:29,771
Oh my god, dad.

1138
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,476
I can't believe you
gotta take care of these.

1139
00:58:33,545 --> 00:58:35,445
Really rough with them.

1140
00:58:35,514 --> 00:58:39,915
Comes from having lived
with it for so many years.

1141
00:58:39,984 --> 00:58:42,986
Here's an example,
look at this one.

1142
00:58:43,055 --> 00:58:46,022
This is from me.

1143
00:58:46,091 --> 00:58:47,757
Ohh wow, dad.

1144
00:58:47,826 --> 00:58:51,927
Merry Christmas to father,
and merry Christmas to mother.

1145
00:58:51,996 --> 00:58:56,132
The big days are here,
see the pretty Christmas tree.

1146
00:58:56,201 --> 00:58:58,802
Happy new year,
your son, from Michael,

1147
00:58:58,871 --> 00:59:00,537
then I erased "from."

1148
00:59:00,606 --> 00:59:04,807
There's 1950, here's '51,

1149
00:59:04,876 --> 00:59:09,312
here's '52, and here's '52...

1150
00:59:09,381 --> 00:59:13,182
And here's '53,
the first half of '53.

1151
00:59:13,251 --> 00:59:16,956
And here's the end of '53.

1152
00:59:24,528 --> 00:59:26,995
"Your daddy was with me
in the last momentous hours

1153
00:59:27,064 --> 00:59:29,732
"sends his heart and all
the love that is in it

1154
00:59:29,801 --> 00:59:31,345
"for his dearest boys.

1155
00:59:31,369 --> 00:59:33,068
"Always remember
that we were innocent

1156
00:59:33,137 --> 00:59:34,870
"and could not wrong
our conscience.

1157
00:59:34,939 --> 00:59:38,407
"We press you close and
kiss you with all our strength,

1158
00:59:38,476 --> 00:59:44,217
lovingly, daddy Julie
and mommy Ethel."

1159
00:59:54,492 --> 00:59:56,325
What do you think
about this new evidence

1160
00:59:56,394 --> 00:59:58,928
that shows that maybe Julius
was passing secrets?

1161
00:59:58,997 --> 01:00:02,264
It's very, it's difficult,

1162
01:00:02,333 --> 01:00:03,744
'cause I grew up my whole life

1163
01:00:03,768 --> 01:00:06,335
thinking that Ethel and Julius
were totally innocent

1164
01:00:06,404 --> 01:00:09,072
the whole time and now
that new evidence has come out

1165
01:00:09,141 --> 01:00:11,341
and perhaps that
Julius was involved,

1166
01:00:11,410 --> 01:00:13,676
it's difficult, at the same time

1167
01:00:13,745 --> 01:00:17,413
I always wonder to myself
if he was innocent.

1168
01:00:17,482 --> 01:00:19,882
I mean, if he was guilty
and he did do something,

1169
01:00:19,951 --> 01:00:23,986
why didn't he say,
"look it was me

1170
01:00:24,055 --> 01:00:26,956
and not my wife,
spare her life."

1171
01:00:27,025 --> 01:00:29,892
And that's what's bothering me

1172
01:00:29,961 --> 01:00:32,040
and I know that's gotta be
what's bothering dad right now.

1173
01:00:32,064 --> 01:00:33,529
I talked to him about it too...

1174
01:00:33,598 --> 01:00:38,367
So I mean, if it is true...

1175
01:00:38,436 --> 01:00:41,204
Obviously, they are innocent
of what they are charged with...

1176
01:00:41,273 --> 01:00:43,105
Right, right and you know,

1177
01:00:43,174 --> 01:00:46,008
you could say that
that's what was going on,

1178
01:00:46,077 --> 01:00:50,012
and they trusted that
history would absolve them.

1179
01:00:50,081 --> 01:00:51,581
One way or the other.

1180
01:00:51,650 --> 01:00:53,850
I mean, suppose venona's true.

1181
01:00:53,919 --> 01:00:55,450
Think of your grandmother.

1182
01:00:55,519 --> 01:00:59,155
She would have had to repudiate
her marriage, basically.

1183
01:00:59,224 --> 01:01:01,890
Testify against her own husband.

1184
01:01:01,959 --> 01:01:05,194
I mean, she would have then
had to live her entire life

1185
01:01:05,263 --> 01:01:07,429
bringing up Robby and me

1186
01:01:07,498 --> 01:01:11,000
having testified
against our own father?

1187
01:01:11,069 --> 01:01:14,037
She would know that some day
as we got to be adults,

1188
01:01:14,106 --> 01:01:17,376
we would hate her for it.

1189
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:29,819
They knew.

1190
01:01:29,888 --> 01:01:31,454
When I say they,

1191
01:01:31,523 --> 01:01:33,689
I mean, the handful of people
who knew about venona,

1192
01:01:33,758 --> 01:01:36,325
including like
j. Edgar hoover,

1193
01:01:36,394 --> 01:01:41,130
they knew that Ethel
had no code name as a spy.

1194
01:01:41,199 --> 01:01:44,833
Which really indicates that
she was not an agent at all,

1195
01:01:44,902 --> 01:01:47,303
because everybody
had code names.

1196
01:01:47,372 --> 01:01:49,939
Ruth was immediately
given a code name.

1197
01:01:50,008 --> 01:01:51,641
Ruth Greenglass,
David Greenglass,

1198
01:01:51,710 --> 01:01:54,511
but Ethel didn't have one.

1199
01:01:54,580 --> 01:01:56,412
Now, knowing that,

1200
01:01:56,481 --> 01:01:59,181
they went ahead
and they arrested Ethel,

1201
01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:03,085
because they thought that her
arrest would persuade Julius.

1202
01:02:03,154 --> 01:02:07,223
And then they played
a game of chicken.

1203
01:02:07,292 --> 01:02:09,558
They put a gun
to her head and they say

1204
01:02:09,627 --> 01:02:12,365
talk or we'll kill her.

1205
01:02:14,766 --> 01:02:17,800
If venona's true then
the United States government

1206
01:02:17,869 --> 01:02:21,771
stands completely condemned
before the bar of history

1207
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,473
of doing exactly
what they talk about

1208
01:02:24,542 --> 01:02:26,475
when they talk about terrorists:

1209
01:02:26,544 --> 01:02:29,912
Taking a hostage and then
murdering the hostage

1210
01:02:29,981 --> 01:02:34,020
when the other side doesn't
come across with the goodies.

1211
01:02:38,823 --> 01:02:42,258
Miriam and I are both convinced
that Ethel was murdered.

1212
01:02:42,327 --> 01:02:46,365
You can't put it any other way.

1213
01:02:49,334 --> 01:02:52,134
So when you try
to ask questions about:

1214
01:02:52,203 --> 01:02:54,837
Why didn't they do this?
Why didn't they confess?

1215
01:02:54,906 --> 01:02:58,206
Which are wonderful mysteries
that everybody asks,

1216
01:02:58,275 --> 01:03:00,977
you have to think what
was in Ethel's mind knowing

1217
01:03:01,046 --> 01:03:06,118
that so much of what was being
said at the trial was fake.

1218
01:03:11,456 --> 01:03:14,256
I've tried to read between
the lines of their letters

1219
01:03:14,325 --> 01:03:16,103
to understand
what they really meant.

1220
01:03:16,127 --> 01:03:20,032
I mean, what did they die for?

1221
01:03:24,769 --> 01:03:26,969
I grew up feeling a certain way

1222
01:03:27,038 --> 01:03:29,405
and now what am I
gonna tell my children

1223
01:03:29,474 --> 01:03:33,109
about who their
great grand parents were?

1224
01:03:33,178 --> 01:03:35,478
I mean what do they...

1225
01:03:35,547 --> 01:03:36,813
what's the story?

1226
01:03:36,882 --> 01:03:38,362
What's the story?
What to tell them?

1227
01:03:38,417 --> 01:03:42,585
It's really a dilemma.

1228
01:03:42,654 --> 01:03:44,554
It's really a dilemma.

1229
01:03:44,623 --> 01:03:49,959
All you can do is to outline
to them what happened

1230
01:03:50,028 --> 01:03:52,995
and tell them
what your feeling is.

1231
01:03:53,064 --> 01:03:55,798
Let them draw
their own conclusions,

1232
01:03:55,867 --> 01:03:57,934
come what may, you know.

1233
01:03:58,003 --> 01:04:00,001
I don't think my father,

1234
01:04:00,070 --> 01:04:04,808
it's because he was so wrapped
up in their innocence himself,

1235
01:04:04,877 --> 01:04:06,843
when I was a kid...

1236
01:04:06,912 --> 01:04:09,512
That affects him
all the stuff coming out.

1237
01:04:09,581 --> 01:04:12,715
He wants to know the truth.

1238
01:04:12,784 --> 01:04:15,118
The truth will make you free...

1239
01:04:15,187 --> 01:04:16,719
Maybe.

1240
01:04:16,788 --> 01:04:18,888
He does want to know the truth.

1241
01:04:18,957 --> 01:04:20,723
Yeah, I know, I know.

1242
01:04:20,792 --> 01:04:22,728
I do too.

1243
01:04:27,232 --> 01:04:29,865
The crime for which
Julius was convicted,

1244
01:04:29,934 --> 01:04:31,614
he could not have committed.

1245
01:04:31,669 --> 01:04:35,237
He was guilty of
something else under the law,

1246
01:04:35,306 --> 01:04:38,941
but not that kind of a thing,
and not that kind of a fate.

1247
01:04:39,010 --> 01:04:41,544
So what was he guilty of?

1248
01:04:41,613 --> 01:04:44,813
He was a member of a group,
he was, no question about it,

1249
01:04:44,882 --> 01:04:48,918
of young bright men
who were into science

1250
01:04:48,987 --> 01:04:50,986
who were of our persuasion,

1251
01:04:51,055 --> 01:04:53,355
who did everything they could
to collect information

1252
01:04:53,424 --> 01:04:55,236
and get it to the Soviet Union.

1253
01:04:55,260 --> 01:04:56,726
I remember one of the projects.

1254
01:04:56,795 --> 01:04:58,427
What was it?

1255
01:04:58,496 --> 01:04:59,929
It had to do with...

1256
01:04:59,998 --> 01:05:04,433
An airplane propeller,
as it spins,

1257
01:05:04,502 --> 01:05:07,470
it had to do with being able
to control from the cockpit,

1258
01:05:07,539 --> 01:05:09,250
the pitch of blades.

1259
01:05:09,274 --> 01:05:11,106
And I know for a fact

1260
01:05:11,175 --> 01:05:14,010
that Julius was trying
to get that to them,

1261
01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:15,911
because he talked
to me about it.

1262
01:05:15,980 --> 01:05:19,748
And I didn't discourage him
with the idea.

1263
01:05:19,817 --> 01:05:22,719
I discouraged him
when he discussed

1264
01:05:22,788 --> 01:05:24,487
how he was going about it.

1265
01:05:24,556 --> 01:05:25,588
But the idea,

1266
01:05:25,657 --> 01:05:27,457
I would have gladly
taken that package myself,

1267
01:05:27,493 --> 01:05:29,392
that information, oh yeah.

1268
01:05:29,461 --> 01:05:31,761
And that's hard for people
to understand today.

1269
01:05:31,830 --> 01:05:34,397
So it doesn't
surprise you at all

1270
01:05:34,466 --> 01:05:36,132
and you think Julius was...

1271
01:05:36,201 --> 01:05:39,802
Not only not surprise me
I would've done it!

1272
01:05:39,871 --> 01:05:41,511
That's what I'm
trying to tell you.

1273
01:05:51,049 --> 01:05:51,981
Harry!

1274
01:05:52,050 --> 01:05:54,950
Harry, do you know who I am?

1275
01:05:55,019 --> 01:05:58,087
You're the granddaughter
of the Rosenbergs.

1276
01:05:58,156 --> 01:06:00,189
That's right.

1277
01:06:00,258 --> 01:06:02,425
I'm Michael's daughter.

1278
01:06:02,494 --> 01:06:05,862
You're Michael's daughter
not Robert's daughter.

1279
01:06:05,931 --> 01:06:07,229
Right, right.

1280
01:06:07,298 --> 01:06:10,166
By the way, prove it.

1281
01:06:10,235 --> 01:06:11,834
Where's your driver's license?

1282
01:06:11,903 --> 01:06:14,073
You want to see it?

1283
01:06:15,407 --> 01:06:16,539
Here it is.

1284
01:06:16,608 --> 01:06:20,043
Ivy Meeropol.

1285
01:06:20,112 --> 01:06:23,079
Yeah, Rosenberg.

1286
01:06:23,148 --> 01:06:26,349
Are you satisfied
that I'm who I say I am?

1287
01:06:26,418 --> 01:06:28,418
Now, yeah.

1288
01:06:33,125 --> 01:06:34,724
Do people here know

1289
01:06:34,793 --> 01:06:36,505
that you were friends
with my grandparents?

1290
01:06:36,529 --> 01:06:37,260
No.

1291
01:06:37,329 --> 01:06:38,798
They don't.

1292
01:06:40,699 --> 01:06:43,299
Oh, they're not?

1293
01:06:43,368 --> 01:06:44,637
Unfortunately.

1294
01:07:20,805 --> 01:07:25,275
So, I've heard that
you feel that they...

1295
01:07:25,344 --> 01:07:30,116
the position that
they took saved you.

1296
01:07:37,823 --> 01:07:38,823
Manny.

1297
01:08:12,824 --> 01:08:15,661
Anything else you wanna know?

1298
01:08:17,362 --> 01:08:21,033
Your grandparents
were willing to die.

1299
01:08:23,001 --> 01:08:27,140
They could've saved their lives.

1300
01:08:50,596 --> 01:08:55,401
That's a lot to, you know...

1301
01:09:03,508 --> 01:09:06,342
But I think it's
you know, it's hard,

1302
01:09:06,411 --> 01:09:11,651
that they left two children.

1303
01:09:13,818 --> 01:09:16,519
Yeah, yeah.

1304
01:09:16,588 --> 01:09:17,723
That's right.

1305
01:09:40,612 --> 01:09:43,479
The real thing here
became one of...

1306
01:09:43,548 --> 01:09:46,849
"What do you mean
the death sentence

1307
01:09:46,918 --> 01:09:48,518
"are you out of
your goddamn minds?

1308
01:09:48,587 --> 01:09:53,088
For what,
for what?"

1309
01:09:53,157 --> 01:09:55,158
And suddenly we knew that
if we didn't do anything,

1310
01:09:55,227 --> 01:09:56,470
nobody would.

1311
01:09:56,494 --> 01:09:58,027
And really that's how it began.

1312
01:09:58,096 --> 01:10:00,663
We set up with
a number of other people

1313
01:10:00,732 --> 01:10:03,199
the national committee
to secure justice

1314
01:10:03,268 --> 01:10:04,834
in the Rosenberg case,

1315
01:10:04,903 --> 01:10:06,981
and then David started
covering the country.

1316
01:10:07,005 --> 01:10:09,505
He went from city
to city to city.

1317
01:10:09,574 --> 01:10:12,942
The FBI said he put
in 10,000 miles

1318
01:10:13,011 --> 01:10:14,910
because they followed him
all the way.

1319
01:10:14,979 --> 01:10:17,914
And he'd start committees
with two or three people

1320
01:10:17,983 --> 01:10:20,883
and we ended up with committees

1321
01:10:20,952 --> 01:10:24,824
in every major city
in the United States.

1322
01:10:49,014 --> 01:10:52,426
"Dear Mr. President,
what single action

1323
01:10:52,450 --> 01:10:55,984
"could more effectively
demonstrate this nation's

1324
01:10:56,053 --> 01:10:59,388
"fealty to religious
and Democratic ideals

1325
01:10:59,457 --> 01:11:03,860
"than the granting of clemency
to my husband and myself.

1326
01:11:03,929 --> 01:11:07,363
"Such an act would also
be a fitting reply

1327
01:11:07,432 --> 01:11:09,599
"to a small boy's
desperate appeal.

1328
01:11:09,668 --> 01:11:13,069
"A hope for the release
of his own dear parents.

1329
01:11:13,138 --> 01:11:16,506
"Take counsel with the mother
of your only son.

1330
01:11:16,575 --> 01:11:21,110
"Her heart, which understands
my grief so well

1331
01:11:21,179 --> 01:11:24,481
"and my longing to see
my sons grown to manhood

1332
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:26,327
"like her own.

1333
01:11:26,351 --> 01:11:28,284
"With loving husband at my side.

1334
01:11:28,353 --> 01:11:31,420
"Respectfully yours,
Mrs. Ethel Rosenberg,

1335
01:11:31,489 --> 01:11:35,625
"prison number 110-501,

1336
01:11:35,694 --> 01:11:39,832
women's wing,
condemned cell."

1337
01:11:41,399 --> 01:11:43,767
Until the last day
they really thought

1338
01:11:43,836 --> 01:11:45,934
that they were gonna make it.

1339
01:11:46,003 --> 01:11:47,970
My aunt Ethel, she said
my father would say

1340
01:11:48,039 --> 01:11:52,675
to her in jail, "sis,
I think we'll just make it."

1341
01:11:52,744 --> 01:11:56,512
And what he meant
was that their lives

1342
01:11:56,581 --> 01:12:00,149
would be spared sort of
at the last minute.

1343
01:12:00,218 --> 01:12:03,085
And you know they were right.

1344
01:12:03,154 --> 01:12:05,387
They came very close.

1345
01:12:05,456 --> 01:12:09,425
It took the most extraordinary
machinations in the supreme court,

1346
01:12:09,494 --> 01:12:11,372
I mean, the stuff that
went on in the supreme court

1347
01:12:11,396 --> 01:12:14,563
that last week
was just outrageous.

1348
01:12:14,632 --> 01:12:17,266
I mean, actually allowing a fix

1349
01:12:17,335 --> 01:12:19,013
that the chief justice
of the supreme court...

1350
01:12:19,037 --> 01:12:20,581
even before Douglas
grants the stay,

1351
01:12:20,605 --> 01:12:23,505
he's the one who says,
"I will call the court back

1352
01:12:23,574 --> 01:12:26,676
into special session to overturn
the stay if he grants it."

1353
01:12:26,745 --> 01:12:29,178
I mean, it's just
an unbelievable line,

1354
01:12:29,247 --> 01:12:32,514
because that means he's not even
gonna wait to see the reasons,

1355
01:12:32,583 --> 01:12:35,418
to see whether
the reasoning is good.

1356
01:12:35,487 --> 01:12:39,358
He's just gonna
overturn it, period!

1357
01:12:45,964 --> 01:12:49,631
The following is part
of a statement

1358
01:12:49,700 --> 01:12:51,968
just issued by the president
of the United States.

1359
01:12:52,037 --> 01:12:55,204
By immeasurably increasing
the chances of atomic war,

1360
01:12:55,273 --> 01:12:58,507
the Rosenbergs may have
condemned to death

1361
01:12:58,576 --> 01:13:01,410
tens of millions of innocent
people all over the world.

1362
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:05,551
I will not intervene
in this matter.

1363
01:13:11,122 --> 01:13:13,956
I mean, as someone
who refused to do

1364
01:13:14,025 --> 01:13:18,227
what they wanted, also,
I mean, can you...

1365
01:13:18,296 --> 01:13:20,830
It isn't that they refused,
they couldn't.

1366
01:13:20,899 --> 01:13:22,632
They just couldn't.

1367
01:13:22,701 --> 01:13:24,834
Is that how you felt, too?

1368
01:13:24,903 --> 01:13:29,906
Yeah, it was not possible,
just not possible,

1369
01:13:29,975 --> 01:13:35,548
you're wasting your breath
I can't think that way.

1370
01:13:37,282 --> 01:13:39,215
Because that continues
to plague them,

1371
01:13:39,284 --> 01:13:40,983
even 50 years
after their death...

1372
01:13:41,052 --> 01:13:42,584
Right.

1373
01:13:42,653 --> 01:13:44,573
...and our family,
it's a constant question.

1374
01:13:44,622 --> 01:13:46,490
Why didn't they save themselves?

1375
01:13:46,559 --> 01:13:48,056
They couldn't.

1376
01:13:48,125 --> 01:13:50,125
You know, why did they
not care about my father?

1377
01:13:50,194 --> 01:13:52,295
Why did they not
care about my uncle?

1378
01:13:52,364 --> 01:13:54,630
They couldn't,
they couldn't do anything.

1379
01:13:54,699 --> 01:13:57,867
They would have had to be
something they were not,

1380
01:13:57,936 --> 01:14:01,003
and that's not possible.

1381
01:14:01,072 --> 01:14:05,141
And to look for only
political explanations

1382
01:14:05,210 --> 01:14:07,277
is bullshit.

1383
01:14:07,346 --> 01:14:09,312
Purely bullshit.

1384
01:14:09,381 --> 01:14:10,946
If you wanna ask me why

1385
01:14:11,015 --> 01:14:15,084
Ethel and Julius
stood up like they did?

1386
01:14:15,153 --> 01:14:17,753
'Cause they knew
that if they didn't,

1387
01:14:17,822 --> 01:14:19,855
they could not even
face each other.

1388
01:14:19,924 --> 01:14:23,292
They would have no respect
for each other.

1389
01:14:23,361 --> 01:14:27,997
The resistance was
an enormous bonding thing,

1390
01:14:28,066 --> 01:14:31,834
in some ways more
than anything else.

1391
01:14:31,903 --> 01:14:34,103
It's far more important
than lust or sex,

1392
01:14:34,172 --> 01:14:37,773
they had become not only
each other's best friends,

1393
01:14:37,842 --> 01:14:41,811
but loyal comrades in
the deepest sense of the word.

1394
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,413
And they couldn't betray that.

1395
01:14:44,482 --> 01:14:46,849
Either one of them
would have been crushed

1396
01:14:46,918 --> 01:14:48,317
by the other's yielding.

1397
01:14:48,386 --> 01:14:52,358
They loved each other,
but in a very deep way.

1398
01:14:56,727 --> 01:14:59,429
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
will die in the electric chair

1399
01:14:59,498 --> 01:15:01,063
at Sing Sing prison tonight.

1400
01:15:01,132 --> 01:15:03,365
Warden dennoe said earlier

1401
01:15:03,434 --> 01:15:06,502
that the executions would begin
at eight P.M. daylight time.

1402
01:15:06,571 --> 01:15:09,171
The execution time was set
after the supreme court

1403
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:11,106
and the president
refused to intervene.

1404
01:15:11,175 --> 01:15:13,709
We are told that the president
and Attorney General brownell

1405
01:15:13,778 --> 01:15:16,913
are standing by
in the event the Rosenbergs

1406
01:15:16,982 --> 01:15:19,385
want to make
a clean breast of it.

1407
01:15:31,129 --> 01:15:33,340
Every other visit we just
assumed there was a next time.

1408
01:15:33,364 --> 01:15:37,800
This one, there was no
necessarily a next time,

1409
01:15:37,869 --> 01:15:40,502
so I started wailing,

1410
01:15:40,571 --> 01:15:43,172
"one more day to live,
one more day to live."

1411
01:15:43,241 --> 01:15:46,909
What I was saying to them is,
"how can you be so normal

1412
01:15:46,978 --> 01:15:50,680
in saying goodbye when you only
have one more day to live?"

1413
01:15:50,749 --> 01:15:53,583
And they hugged me
and said everything

1414
01:15:53,652 --> 01:15:55,555
would be alright and out I went.

1415
01:15:59,724 --> 01:16:02,325
So you're talking about
discovering these letters.

1416
01:16:02,394 --> 01:16:06,395
Yeah, well, they were
little scraps of paper

1417
01:16:06,464 --> 01:16:11,568
on which Ethel had scrawled
little messages, minutes,

1418
01:16:11,637 --> 01:16:13,602
before her death,

1419
01:16:13,671 --> 01:16:16,238
and I remember there was one of
them in particular and it said:

1420
01:16:16,307 --> 01:16:18,741
"I cry for myself as I lie dead

1421
01:16:18,810 --> 01:16:21,944
"for shall they know all

1422
01:16:22,013 --> 01:16:25,952
that burned my brain
and breast."

1423
01:16:35,827 --> 01:16:38,139
When did your husband
first start at Sing Sing?

1424
01:16:38,163 --> 01:16:41,597
In 1950, he was appointed
by the governor

1425
01:16:41,666 --> 01:16:45,467
and the year after that
Ethel and Julius

1426
01:16:45,536 --> 01:16:49,371
were brought into
the death house.

1427
01:16:49,440 --> 01:16:53,175
And for the next two years
he saw them every single week.

1428
01:16:53,244 --> 01:16:56,878
And then of course that day,
that fateful day.

1429
01:16:56,947 --> 01:17:00,949
He was at the corner
gasoline station getting gas

1430
01:17:01,018 --> 01:17:03,786
and he hears the news
on the car radio,

1431
01:17:03,855 --> 01:17:07,290
that the Rosenbergs are
gonna be executed that night.

1432
01:17:07,359 --> 01:17:11,594
And he was in shock.

1433
01:17:11,663 --> 01:17:15,931
And he called me from
the gas station he said,

1434
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:17,166
"I'm not coming home,

1435
01:17:17,235 --> 01:17:18,901
"I'm going straight up
to Sing Sing.

1436
01:17:18,970 --> 01:17:20,737
I have to be
with them."

1437
01:17:20,806 --> 01:17:22,505
And then of course
he had the bitter choice

1438
01:17:22,574 --> 01:17:25,207
of having to choose
which one goes first.

1439
01:17:25,276 --> 01:17:30,813
And so at that point
he felt that Julius

1440
01:17:30,882 --> 01:17:33,482
was more nervous than Ethel.

1441
01:17:33,551 --> 01:17:38,121
And so he thought maybe he
should be the one to go first.

1442
01:17:38,190 --> 01:17:42,091
And he had to walk
with him to the chair.

1443
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:43,993
They strap him in,

1444
01:17:44,062 --> 01:17:46,529
he stands in front of him,
like I am before you,

1445
01:17:46,598 --> 01:17:49,766
and has to stand there
and witness

1446
01:17:49,835 --> 01:17:52,071
that electrocution.

1447
01:17:55,907 --> 01:17:58,708
And then, he had to walk back

1448
01:17:58,777 --> 01:18:01,243
and go to Ethel,

1449
01:18:01,312 --> 01:18:04,213
and he said to Ethel...

1450
01:18:04,282 --> 01:18:11,591
"Julius is gone,
and you're left,

1451
01:18:13,257 --> 01:18:16,292
"and you're leaving two children
without any parents.

1452
01:18:16,361 --> 01:18:20,796
"You still have a chance
to save yourself.

1453
01:18:20,865 --> 01:18:24,900
"Do you have any name, do you
have any thing you could...

1454
01:18:24,969 --> 01:18:27,503
"any name, even if
it's a false name,

1455
01:18:27,572 --> 01:18:30,406
something that
will save you."

1456
01:18:30,475 --> 01:18:35,912
And she said,
"no, I have no name,

1457
01:18:35,981 --> 01:18:38,214
"I'm innocent

1458
01:18:38,283 --> 01:18:42,388
and I'm ready."

1459
01:18:43,655 --> 01:18:45,822
And so, they put her
in the chair,

1460
01:18:45,891 --> 01:18:48,691
and I think she was just
too small and petite

1461
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:50,159
for the size of the chair

1462
01:18:50,228 --> 01:18:52,595
and the electrode and
it didn't fit her properly,

1463
01:18:52,664 --> 01:18:56,065
and they gave her a shock.

1464
01:18:56,134 --> 01:19:01,804
And the examiner checked her

1465
01:19:01,873 --> 01:19:04,140
and her heart was still beating

1466
01:19:04,209 --> 01:19:07,747
so they had to do it again.

1467
01:19:17,622 --> 01:19:19,089
We rollin' yet?

1468
01:19:19,158 --> 01:19:21,290
Come on!

1469
01:19:21,359 --> 01:19:24,860
Well, the official party arrived
at the death house at 8:01

1470
01:19:24,929 --> 01:19:28,163
and they were all
seated by 8:02,

1471
01:19:28,232 --> 01:19:32,001
at about that time they
brought Julius in first

1472
01:19:32,070 --> 01:19:34,437
and he appeared very calm,
almost defiant.

1473
01:19:34,506 --> 01:19:37,306
There was no expression
on their faces.

1474
01:19:37,375 --> 01:19:42,845
They sat in the chair without
the assistance of the guards.

1475
01:19:42,914 --> 01:19:47,216
She turned to the matron who's
been with her all this time

1476
01:19:47,285 --> 01:19:49,952
and shook her hand
then she impulsively

1477
01:19:50,021 --> 01:19:51,632
leaned over and kissed her.

1478
01:19:51,656 --> 01:19:53,489
In Rosenberg's case

1479
01:19:53,558 --> 01:19:56,693
it was all over
in a very few minutes,

1480
01:19:56,762 --> 01:19:58,895
she died a lot harder.

1481
01:19:58,964 --> 01:20:02,998
Believing she was dead
the attendants

1482
01:20:03,067 --> 01:20:07,804
had taken off the ghastly
strappings, electrodes,

1483
01:20:07,873 --> 01:20:10,874
and black belts, and so forth,

1484
01:20:10,943 --> 01:20:12,808
and these had to be
readjusted again,

1485
01:20:12,877 --> 01:20:14,644
and she was given
more electricity

1486
01:20:14,713 --> 01:20:16,312
which started again,

1487
01:20:16,381 --> 01:20:19,783
and kind of a ghastly
plume of smoke

1488
01:20:19,852 --> 01:20:21,684
that rose from her head

1489
01:20:21,753 --> 01:20:28,524
and went up against
the skylight overhead.

1490
01:20:28,593 --> 01:20:32,495
She was then examined again.

1491
01:20:32,564 --> 01:20:34,831
She was pronounced dead
at 8:16,

1492
01:20:34,900 --> 01:20:36,800
that's four and
a half minutes after

1493
01:20:36,869 --> 01:20:39,402
she was placed in the chair.

1494
01:20:39,471 --> 01:20:41,808
Then her body was moved...

1495
01:20:59,591 --> 01:21:01,457
I walked in the house

1496
01:21:01,526 --> 01:21:02,992
and there were all
these adults there

1497
01:21:03,061 --> 01:21:04,360
and I said
"what happened?"

1498
01:21:04,429 --> 01:21:05,506
And nobody would
answer me directly,

1499
01:21:05,530 --> 01:21:09,298
and so I knew that that
was it, they were dead.

1500
01:21:09,367 --> 01:21:12,468
I was really incapable
of reacting really,

1501
01:21:12,537 --> 01:21:14,436
so I basically just sat down

1502
01:21:14,505 --> 01:21:17,607
and very dry-eyed,
just looked at my hands.

1503
01:21:17,676 --> 01:21:20,142
And my friend piped up,

1504
01:21:20,211 --> 01:21:21,588
"you're taking it
just like a man, Mike."

1505
01:21:21,612 --> 01:21:23,546
And the woman who we were
staying with hugged me

1506
01:21:23,615 --> 01:21:26,015
and said, "you'll
stay here with us,"

1507
01:21:26,084 --> 01:21:28,016
and I thought,
"well, yes, I will".

1508
01:21:28,085 --> 01:21:31,888
Was there anyone that you felt

1509
01:21:31,957 --> 01:21:33,423
that was there to comfort you?

1510
01:21:33,492 --> 01:21:35,491
Not in those months.

1511
01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:37,827
Those months were
not very good months

1512
01:21:37,896 --> 01:21:39,695
if I remember correctly.

1513
01:21:39,764 --> 01:21:42,265
I wasn't adjusting very well
to that kind of life.

1514
01:21:42,334 --> 01:21:46,202
Up until June 1953 there was
always some kind of hope,

1515
01:21:46,271 --> 01:21:49,272
but after that
it was, you know...

1516
01:21:49,341 --> 01:21:53,309
So everything, all the bad stuff
that could have come out

1517
01:21:53,378 --> 01:21:56,245
that was sort of held
in abeyance by the hope

1518
01:21:56,314 --> 01:21:58,648
started to come out,
the recriminations.

1519
01:21:58,717 --> 01:22:00,349
I was, you know...

1520
01:22:00,418 --> 01:22:03,319
I didn't do well in school,
I was not in great shape.

1521
01:22:03,388 --> 01:22:09,225
My father remembers you
driving up with a station wagon

1522
01:22:09,294 --> 01:22:11,527
with a bed rigged in the back

1523
01:22:11,596 --> 01:22:13,862
and that you were coming
to maybe adopt them?

1524
01:22:13,931 --> 01:22:16,832
Actually, we were
going to the west coast

1525
01:22:16,901 --> 01:22:21,270
and I regretted not
putting them in the car

1526
01:22:21,339 --> 01:22:23,739
and taking them with us.

1527
01:22:23,808 --> 01:22:27,543
On the other hand with the FBI
following us all the way

1528
01:22:27,612 --> 01:22:31,113
again it was how much
do you expose them to?

1529
01:22:31,182 --> 01:22:32,648
There was surveillance.

1530
01:22:32,717 --> 01:22:35,951
So, you were
concerned in a way...

1531
01:22:36,020 --> 01:22:37,865
We expected to get
arrested soon too.

1532
01:22:37,889 --> 01:22:40,690
We expected that
our turn was next.

1533
01:22:40,759 --> 01:22:42,525
You don't bring
the boys into that.

1534
01:22:42,594 --> 01:22:43,826
You don't.

1535
01:22:43,895 --> 01:22:45,595
They can't go through it twice,

1536
01:22:45,664 --> 01:22:48,831
they needed exactly
what took place,

1537
01:22:48,900 --> 01:22:50,540
they needed the meeropols.

1538
01:22:50,568 --> 01:22:53,869
My husband and I
have discussed the thing

1539
01:22:53,938 --> 01:22:56,505
and we had known
about the children.

1540
01:22:56,574 --> 01:22:58,141
Although, we did not
know the parents,

1541
01:22:58,210 --> 01:23:00,009
we knew Mr. Bloch.

1542
01:23:00,078 --> 01:23:01,944
Manny Bloch was
our legal guardian

1543
01:23:02,013 --> 01:23:04,113
after our parents were killed.

1544
01:23:04,182 --> 01:23:09,551
What happened was a woman who
was working in Manny's office

1545
01:23:09,620 --> 01:23:12,855
was very close friends
with Anne and Abel

1546
01:23:12,924 --> 01:23:14,858
and she basically told Manny,

1547
01:23:14,927 --> 01:23:18,131
"these people
would be perfect."

1548
01:23:18,864 --> 01:23:22,432
...and they adjusted wonderful.

1549
01:23:22,501 --> 01:23:26,902
I love Anne, and I love Abel.

1550
01:23:26,971 --> 01:23:28,850
I asked the children
whether they were satisfied,

1551
01:23:28,874 --> 01:23:30,354
and they said, "I love them.

1552
01:23:30,409 --> 01:23:32,342
I love Anne,
and I love Abel."

1553
01:23:32,411 --> 01:23:36,579
Anne and Abel were
leftist intellectuals.

1554
01:23:36,648 --> 01:23:40,182
Daddy was a New York City
public school teacher,

1555
01:23:40,251 --> 01:23:41,529
who was a writer,

1556
01:23:41,553 --> 01:23:44,052
and when we met him
he was a full-time writer,

1557
01:23:44,121 --> 01:23:47,390
and she was a full-time
you know, sort of drama person.

1558
01:23:47,459 --> 01:23:49,959
So they both had
a lot of time for us.

1559
01:23:50,028 --> 01:23:53,129
They gave us tremendous,
tremendous attention.

1560
01:23:53,198 --> 01:23:56,099
So, do you remember taking
an immediate liking to them?

1561
01:23:56,168 --> 01:23:57,533
Oh yeah, absolutely.

1562
01:23:57,602 --> 01:24:01,170
I mean, daddy was just
the most hysterical person

1563
01:24:01,239 --> 01:24:03,083
you'd ever want
to meet in your life.

1564
01:24:03,107 --> 01:24:06,942
And now folks, we will have
Abel say us a few words:

1565
01:24:07,011 --> 01:24:11,214
"Ong-wong-way, kaza-lama-zay,
lama-zee lama-zay,

1566
01:24:11,283 --> 01:24:13,682
tishy-Patty-wama-zay
awky-pawky ong-wong-way."

1567
01:24:13,751 --> 01:24:16,318
Thank you, Abel,
that was a very nice speech.

1568
01:24:16,387 --> 01:24:19,455
And now we give you,
Michael Meeropol.

1569
01:24:19,524 --> 01:24:23,526
The family lore was
after we were adopted

1570
01:24:23,595 --> 01:24:25,828
and disappeared
from public view,

1571
01:24:25,897 --> 01:24:29,432
was that we had been
taken by the communists.

1572
01:24:29,501 --> 01:24:31,534
That was the family lore.

1573
01:24:31,603 --> 01:24:33,869
And at that point
you were already feeling

1574
01:24:33,938 --> 01:24:35,438
very attached to the meeropols.

1575
01:24:35,507 --> 01:24:36,917
Oh yeah, absolutely,
those tapes, those tapes

1576
01:24:36,941 --> 01:24:40,176
those were the things that
were happening in January

1577
01:24:40,245 --> 01:24:43,279
and I loved my school,
everything was great...

1578
01:24:43,348 --> 01:24:44,547
And then, oh god.

1579
01:24:44,616 --> 01:24:48,651
Certain people
in the welfare industry,

1580
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,154
basically conspired to try to
get us away from Anne and Abel.

1581
01:24:52,223 --> 01:24:55,291
And the guy puts us in a home

1582
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:57,060
and Robby and I
are back in a home.

1583
01:24:57,129 --> 01:24:58,729
Oh, it was the most
horrible two days.

1584
01:24:58,797 --> 01:25:00,996
It was as bad as any other time.

1585
01:25:01,065 --> 01:25:03,900
Mrs. Meeropol, we want to know
what's going to happen now?

1586
01:25:03,969 --> 01:25:05,379
Are you going to get
the children back?

1587
01:25:05,403 --> 01:25:06,503
Do you want them back?

1588
01:25:06,572 --> 01:25:07,904
Well, we do want them back.

1589
01:25:07,973 --> 01:25:09,149
We had hoped that
they could stay with us

1590
01:25:09,173 --> 01:25:10,573
even during this
interval period,

1591
01:25:10,642 --> 01:25:14,577
because we feel that
the children need to be with us,

1592
01:25:14,646 --> 01:25:16,745
and we want them
and we love them

1593
01:25:16,814 --> 01:25:18,359
as though they were our own...

1594
01:25:18,383 --> 01:25:21,217
And then the whole committee
structure rallies.

1595
01:25:21,286 --> 01:25:22,719
Rosenberg committee?

1596
01:25:22,788 --> 01:25:25,922
Yeah, and they go before
a guy named McNally,

1597
01:25:25,991 --> 01:25:27,402
the supreme court judge,

1598
01:25:27,426 --> 01:25:29,158
and here's what's
kind of interesting.

1599
01:25:29,227 --> 01:25:30,927
He's a catholic,
and a Jewish judge

1600
01:25:30,996 --> 01:25:32,495
has ordered us
to go to the home.

1601
01:25:32,564 --> 01:25:34,296
And McNally was very smart.

1602
01:25:34,365 --> 01:25:38,234
He paroled us in our
grandmother's custody.

1603
01:25:38,303 --> 01:25:41,504
He has this great statement,
"Mrs. Rosenberg,

1604
01:25:41,573 --> 01:25:44,173
"I am counting on you
to take these children,

1605
01:25:44,242 --> 01:25:45,620
"and care for these children,

1606
01:25:45,644 --> 01:25:48,078
"teach them out of
the old testament,

1607
01:25:48,147 --> 01:25:49,523
"teach them, as you have,

1608
01:25:49,547 --> 01:25:52,615
"the tenets of your ancient
and honorable religion,

1609
01:25:52,684 --> 01:25:55,284
"never let anyone
talk to these children

1610
01:25:55,353 --> 01:25:57,286
"in derogation
against this country,

1611
01:25:57,355 --> 01:25:58,566
"it is their country too,

1612
01:25:58,590 --> 01:26:01,657
that is a sad and
distressing situation..."

1613
01:26:01,726 --> 01:26:02,937
I mean, what a wonderful guy.

1614
01:26:02,961 --> 01:26:04,193
That was a great...

1615
01:26:04,262 --> 01:26:06,040
I think that was
the turning point in our lives,

1616
01:26:06,064 --> 01:26:07,842
because it was the first victory

1617
01:26:07,866 --> 01:26:09,906
our family had
ever had in the courts.

1618
01:26:34,025 --> 01:26:36,626
And I can't really explain
why I never bothered

1619
01:26:36,695 --> 01:26:38,461
to find out where the grave was,

1620
01:26:38,530 --> 01:26:41,731
and go to the grave,
but I think part of it was just,

1621
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:46,506
why put myself through that?

1622
01:26:56,415 --> 01:26:58,014
It's in this plot.

1623
01:26:58,083 --> 01:27:00,016
It is in this big plot.

1624
01:27:00,085 --> 01:27:02,051
I think we should go further in.

1625
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,286
Oh, she didn't give me a row.

1626
01:27:04,355 --> 01:27:06,058
Nah, she's making it difficult.

1627
01:27:18,169 --> 01:27:20,536
We gotta like, look down
all these rows, huh?

1628
01:27:20,605 --> 01:27:22,542
Shit.

1629
01:27:35,754 --> 01:27:37,921
I feel like I'll just see it.

1630
01:27:37,990 --> 01:27:39,392
I think I see it over there.

1631
01:27:50,102 --> 01:27:51,938
This is it.

1632
01:27:54,706 --> 01:27:56,309
I found it...

1633
01:28:13,958 --> 01:28:18,061
See, it's sad that...

1634
01:28:18,130 --> 01:28:20,666
No...

1635
01:28:25,003 --> 01:28:26,735
I was just gonna say it's sad

1636
01:28:26,804 --> 01:28:33,509
that theirs doesn't say
"beloved husband/father,"

1637
01:28:33,578 --> 01:28:38,718
you know, like these people
right next door.

1638
01:29:10,281 --> 01:29:13,216
It seems like because
of the position they took

1639
01:29:13,285 --> 01:29:18,854
we all get to live
a life where we're proud.

1640
01:29:18,923 --> 01:29:23,426
Yeah, which is interesting
because some people would say

1641
01:29:23,495 --> 01:29:25,206
this is self-delusion,

1642
01:29:25,230 --> 01:29:27,764
I mean, why would you
be proud of traitors?

1643
01:29:27,833 --> 01:29:30,603
But I don't accept that.

1644
01:29:49,153 --> 01:29:53,021
Sort of a macabre,
bizarre speculation

1645
01:29:53,090 --> 01:29:56,559
is what would Robby
and my life have been like

1646
01:29:56,628 --> 01:29:59,762
if Julius had spent
10 years in jail,

1647
01:29:59,831 --> 01:30:02,165
confessed, named
a whole bunch of names,

1648
01:30:02,234 --> 01:30:03,578
been a witness somewhere,

1649
01:30:03,602 --> 01:30:05,301
Ethel had never gone to jail,

1650
01:30:05,370 --> 01:30:08,805
we had been brought up
with new names,

1651
01:30:08,874 --> 01:30:11,173
but really hidden this time,

1652
01:30:11,242 --> 01:30:14,143
so that we could
if we had wanted to,

1653
01:30:14,212 --> 01:30:15,756
never tell you and Gregory,

1654
01:30:15,780 --> 01:30:20,950
but certainly the kind of life
that we would have led

1655
01:30:21,019 --> 01:30:24,987
if your grandfather had been
another David Greenglass

1656
01:30:25,056 --> 01:30:27,176
and your grandmother had been
another Ruth Greenglass,

1657
01:30:27,225 --> 01:30:29,425
I mean, that's a life that I...

1658
01:30:29,494 --> 01:30:33,666
I have to say I'm happy
I didn't lead<i> that</i> life.

1659
01:30:44,075 --> 01:30:46,776
It's really about
bringing them back home,

1660
01:30:46,845 --> 01:30:49,112
they were my dad's parents,

1661
01:30:49,181 --> 01:30:51,480
and they were my grandparents,

1662
01:30:51,549 --> 01:30:56,489
so it's reclaiming
this story for our family.

1662
01:30:57,305 --> 01:31:57,172
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