"Justice on Trial" What Happens in My House (The Matter of Terence K.)

1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,074 Watch Online Movies and Series for FREE www.osdb.link/lm 2 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:25,735 My God! 3 00:00:26,902 --> 00:00:28,487 Terrence, are you okay? 4 00:00:33,659 --> 00:00:34,910 Terrence. 5 00:00:36,537 --> 00:00:37,747 Oh, my God. 6 00:00:45,629 --> 00:00:48,299 Terrence, was there a fight? 'Cause you're pretty swollen here. 7 00:00:50,301 --> 00:00:52,386 It's okay. You're safe here. 8 00:01:05,858 --> 00:01:07,526 Who did this to you? 9 00:01:10,696 --> 00:01:11,781 My father. 10 00:01:14,533 --> 00:01:15,868 Not again. 11 00:01:18,788 --> 00:01:21,707 We need to get Child Protective Services in here right away. 12 00:01:25,669 --> 00:01:27,713 I'm Judy Sheindlin. 13 00:01:27,797 --> 00:01:29,757 Before I was a judge on TV, 14 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,509 I was a judge in New York City for 15 years. 15 00:01:32,593 --> 00:01:35,262 And a lawyer for 17 years before that. 16 00:01:35,346 --> 00:01:37,640 While serving on both sides of the bench, 17 00:01:37,723 --> 00:01:40,559 I learned that justice doesn't always end up feeling... 18 00:01:40,643 --> 00:01:41,852 just. 19 00:01:41,936 --> 00:01:46,482 Sometimes, the impact of one decision by a police officer, a lawyer, 20 00:01:46,565 --> 00:01:49,819 or even a judge, can change the way justice is delivered. 21 00:01:50,985 --> 00:01:52,696 We're going to demonstrate this 22 00:01:52,780 --> 00:01:55,741 by taking landmark cases from actual crimes 23 00:01:55,825 --> 00:01:56,826 committed by real people. 24 00:01:56,908 --> 00:01:59,745 And we'll recreate them with our trial lawyers, 25 00:01:59,829 --> 00:02:01,831 and yours truly as the trial judge. 26 00:02:01,914 --> 00:02:05,376 While we're not going to recreate the trials verbatim, 27 00:02:05,459 --> 00:02:07,837 the court's ultimate decisions are accurate. 28 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,465 It will be up to you to decide whether the case was fair 29 00:02:11,549 --> 00:02:13,509 and the outcome just. 30 00:02:13,592 --> 00:02:16,470 Real cases, actual lawyers, 31 00:02:16,554 --> 00:02:18,264 surprising verdicts. 32 00:02:20,683 --> 00:02:22,476 Justice on Trial. 33 00:02:25,020 --> 00:02:27,481 This case is personal to me. 34 00:02:27,565 --> 00:02:32,736 That's because I actually touched on it as a family court judge in 1988. 35 00:02:32,820 --> 00:02:36,824 When I thought about cases we should profile in this series, 36 00:02:36,906 --> 00:02:39,493 this one was first on my list. 37 00:02:39,577 --> 00:02:42,246 The legal issue here is diplomatic immunity. 38 00:02:42,329 --> 00:02:45,833 You see, the little boy in this case, Terrence Karamba, 39 00:02:45,916 --> 00:02:48,961 was the son of a member of the diplomatic mission 40 00:02:49,043 --> 00:02:52,464 from the country of Zimbabwe. According to international law, 41 00:02:52,548 --> 00:02:55,341 high-level diplomats are not subject to the laws 42 00:02:55,426 --> 00:02:57,428 of the foreign country where they serve. 43 00:02:57,511 --> 00:03:00,931 So, they cannot be prosecuted for the crimes they commit. 44 00:03:01,015 --> 00:03:04,351 But what about the rights of a child from Zimbabwe 45 00:03:04,435 --> 00:03:07,855 living in America and being abused by his father? 46 00:03:07,938 --> 00:03:12,192 After Terrence Karamba was placed into protective custody, 47 00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:17,448 and removed from his parents' home, the first hearing on the State's demand 48 00:03:17,531 --> 00:03:20,618 that Terrence be released from protective custody 49 00:03:20,701 --> 00:03:23,370 was heard by a Family Court Judge in Queens, 50 00:03:23,454 --> 00:03:25,122 where the Karambas lived. 51 00:03:25,204 --> 00:03:27,416 That judge agreed with the State, 52 00:03:27,499 --> 00:03:30,586 and ordered the child immediately returned to his father. 53 00:03:31,921 --> 00:03:35,341 The child's lawyer asked me to reconsider that ruling 54 00:03:35,424 --> 00:03:37,301 in New York County where I worked, 55 00:03:37,384 --> 00:03:43,349 strongly suggesting that the child might be harmed or even killed if returned. 56 00:03:44,642 --> 00:03:47,353 I reluctantly agreed. 57 00:03:47,436 --> 00:03:53,692 Even though New York County technically, technically, had no jurisdiction. 58 00:03:53,776 --> 00:03:57,196 But I thought the optics of the risk to the child 59 00:03:57,279 --> 00:04:00,324 were worth rattling the cage. 60 00:04:00,407 --> 00:04:03,619 Let's watch and see how the forces of justice 61 00:04:03,702 --> 00:04:06,830 and the rule of law collide. 62 00:04:09,041 --> 00:04:10,960 Counsel, note your appearance, please. 63 00:04:11,043 --> 00:04:13,003 For the Petitioner, Terrence Karamba 64 00:04:13,087 --> 00:04:16,005 and the Child Protective Services, I'm Dan Mentzer. 65 00:04:16,089 --> 00:04:19,134 Good morning, Your Honor. Larry Bakman on behalf of the government, 66 00:04:19,218 --> 00:04:21,470 specifically, the State Department 67 00:04:21,553 --> 00:04:23,973 and by virtue of diplomatic immunity, 68 00:04:24,056 --> 00:04:27,434 -the father in this case, Floyd Karamba. -Thank you. 69 00:04:27,518 --> 00:04:29,812 This is a Child Protective proceeding 70 00:04:29,895 --> 00:04:32,272 under the Family Court Act of the State of New York. 71 00:04:32,356 --> 00:04:35,442 Terrence Karamba is a nine-year-old boy 72 00:04:35,526 --> 00:04:38,278 who has allegedly been abused by his father, 73 00:04:38,362 --> 00:04:41,865 who happens to be a diplomat from the country of Zimbabwe. 74 00:04:41,949 --> 00:04:45,953 Child Protective Services removed the child from his home 75 00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:47,663 and placed him in foster care. 76 00:04:47,746 --> 00:04:50,499 The State Department, on behalf of the United States government 77 00:04:50,582 --> 00:04:54,128 as well as Mr. Karamba, demanding immediate return of the child, 78 00:04:54,211 --> 00:04:58,465 alleging that this court has no jurisdiction to hear this case 79 00:04:58,549 --> 00:05:01,969 based upon the Vienna Convention and diplomatic immunity. 80 00:05:02,052 --> 00:05:05,723 Once I determine whether the child is an abused child 81 00:05:05,806 --> 00:05:10,394 and likely to be further injured or worse if returned to the family, 82 00:05:10,477 --> 00:05:14,481 I have to make a determination whether or not the law mandates 83 00:05:14,565 --> 00:05:16,692 that I return the child to his father, 84 00:05:16,775 --> 00:05:20,404 or I can continue him in placement in foster care 85 00:05:20,487 --> 00:05:23,282 until an entire trial is able to be held. 86 00:05:23,365 --> 00:05:25,117 So, that's where we are. Am I correct, counselor? 87 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,244 -That's correct, Your Honor. -Yes, Your Honor. 88 00:05:27,327 --> 00:05:29,622 All right. Counsel, do you wish to make an opening statement? 89 00:05:29,705 --> 00:05:31,623 -I do, Your Honor. -I'll hear you. 90 00:05:31,707 --> 00:05:34,043 As Your Honor noted, the reason we are here today is 91 00:05:34,126 --> 00:05:38,505 because a nine-year-old boy was brutally beaten by his own father. 92 00:05:38,589 --> 00:05:42,259 In this courtroom, you're about to hear graphic testimony 93 00:05:42,342 --> 00:05:44,595 as to the nature of these vicious assaults. 94 00:05:44,678 --> 00:05:48,932 You're gonna see just what this man did to his own nine-year-old boy. 95 00:05:49,016 --> 00:05:52,644 In this courtroom, you're gonna see those scars on his back, 96 00:05:52,728 --> 00:05:54,354 which someday may heal. 97 00:05:54,438 --> 00:05:58,525 But you're also going to hear about those scars that may never heal. 98 00:05:58,609 --> 00:06:00,360 Those are the psychological scars 99 00:06:00,444 --> 00:06:03,197 that were inflicted on this boy by this man. 100 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:07,117 Now, the fact that the perpetrator of these assaults 101 00:06:07,201 --> 00:06:10,746 happens to be a diplomat that works for the Zimbabwe mission 102 00:06:10,829 --> 00:06:15,042 doesn't change the fact that this young child's safety 103 00:06:15,125 --> 00:06:19,046 is in imminent danger if he were to be brought back to his father. 104 00:06:19,129 --> 00:06:21,507 So, what we're asking Your Honor to do 105 00:06:21,590 --> 00:06:25,511 is to maintain the current system where he's in foster care 106 00:06:25,594 --> 00:06:28,222 until at such time where he can get the therapy 107 00:06:28,305 --> 00:06:30,390 where it's safe to return to his home, 108 00:06:30,474 --> 00:06:33,811 and this man will be prosecuted for what he's done. 109 00:06:33,894 --> 00:06:36,146 -Thank you, Your Honor. -Thank you. Mr. Bakman? 110 00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:37,565 Yes, thank you, Your Honor. 111 00:06:37,648 --> 00:06:41,860 The problem with this case is this court has no jurisdiction. 112 00:06:41,944 --> 00:06:44,947 There's something called separation of powers. 113 00:06:45,030 --> 00:06:50,284 The Judiciary branch doesn't get to determine foreign policy considerations. 114 00:06:50,369 --> 00:06:55,624 That's soley within the discretion of the Executive branch and the State Department. 115 00:06:55,707 --> 00:07:00,170 Diplomatic immunity is the cornerstone of diplomacy. 116 00:07:00,254 --> 00:07:05,467 We don't set that aside, even for the welfare of one child. 117 00:07:05,551 --> 00:07:08,804 As cold and as callous as that sounds, 118 00:07:08,887 --> 00:07:12,891 it protects 13,000 diplomats of the United States 119 00:07:12,975 --> 00:07:17,938 that are scattered around the globe. This court does not have jurisdiction. 120 00:07:18,021 --> 00:07:21,358 I would move right now for this court to dismiss this action. 121 00:07:21,441 --> 00:07:24,027 Thank you. I'm gonna hold your motion in abeyance, sir, 122 00:07:24,111 --> 00:07:26,196 and start to take witnesses. Counsel? 123 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:27,531 Thank you, Your Honor. 124 00:07:27,614 --> 00:07:30,159 The Petitioner calls Darren Bronson. 125 00:07:30,242 --> 00:07:32,682 -Swear the witness, Kevin, please? -Yes, ma'am. 126 00:07:34,371 --> 00:07:35,622 Raise your right hand, please. 127 00:07:35,706 --> 00:07:37,792 Do you swear to tell the truth in these matters today? 128 00:07:37,875 --> 00:07:39,293 -I do. -Thank you. Have a seat. 129 00:07:39,376 --> 00:07:40,920 -You may inquire. -Thanks, Your Honor. 130 00:07:41,003 --> 00:07:43,463 Now, Mr. Bronson, were you working as a teacher 131 00:07:43,547 --> 00:07:46,049 at P.S. 178 on December first of last year? 132 00:07:46,133 --> 00:07:47,134 Yes. 133 00:07:47,217 --> 00:07:49,678 Mr. Bronson, did anything unusual happen on that day 134 00:07:49,761 --> 00:07:51,180 with respect to one of your students? 135 00:07:51,263 --> 00:07:53,265 Yes. One of my students, Terrence, 136 00:07:53,348 --> 00:07:55,517 came into the classroom that morning looking hurt. 137 00:07:55,601 --> 00:08:00,272 He had a bruise on his forehead and his face was swollen. 138 00:08:02,357 --> 00:08:04,359 Hey, hey, stop running. 139 00:08:04,443 --> 00:08:05,736 Stop running. 140 00:08:13,118 --> 00:08:16,788 Good morning, Mr. Karamba. How we doing today? 141 00:08:16,872 --> 00:08:18,874 Hi, Mr. Bronson. 142 00:08:18,957 --> 00:08:21,376 Hey. You okay, little man? 143 00:08:27,466 --> 00:08:29,176 What happened, Terrence? 144 00:08:29,259 --> 00:08:31,845 Did you get in a fight before school today? 145 00:08:34,932 --> 00:08:37,226 It's cool, you can tell me. I got you. 146 00:08:38,434 --> 00:08:39,937 I promise. 147 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:44,316 It was... my father. 148 00:08:49,238 --> 00:08:51,824 Now, what did you do when you saw him in that condition? 149 00:08:51,907 --> 00:08:54,284 I immediately took him to the nurse's office. 150 00:08:54,368 --> 00:08:56,662 And were you met with anyone in the nurse's office? 151 00:08:56,745 --> 00:08:58,997 Yes, we were met by the school's guidance counselor. 152 00:08:59,081 --> 00:09:01,792 Did anyone ask Terrence how he got in that condition, 153 00:09:01,875 --> 00:09:03,377 bruised and cuts on his face? 154 00:09:03,460 --> 00:09:07,005 Yes, the nurse asked him what happened and how did he get hurt. 155 00:09:07,089 --> 00:09:08,465 What did Terrence say? 156 00:09:08,548 --> 00:09:10,592 He said his father beat him. 157 00:09:10,676 --> 00:09:14,596 Now, I'm gonna call your attention, Mr. Bronson, to December 11th. 158 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:18,892 Did anything again happen that brought your attention to Terrence Karamba? 159 00:09:18,976 --> 00:09:20,143 Yes, yes, it did. 160 00:09:20,227 --> 00:09:24,147 I saw a bruise and a cut, and he looked hurt. 161 00:09:24,231 --> 00:09:25,482 Oh, my God! 162 00:09:25,565 --> 00:09:26,984 What did you do with Terrence? 163 00:09:27,067 --> 00:09:31,154 Well, I took him back to the nurse, and she called the Child Welfare office. 164 00:09:31,238 --> 00:09:33,490 -Thank you, Mr. Bronson. -Mm-hmm. 165 00:09:33,573 --> 00:09:34,616 You may inquire, sir. 166 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:38,412 Yes. All right, Mr. Bronson, as I understand it, sir, you're a teacher? 167 00:09:38,495 --> 00:09:40,872 -Yes. -And you have received training 168 00:09:40,956 --> 00:09:44,418 with respect to mandated reporting for child abuse, yes? 169 00:09:44,501 --> 00:09:45,544 Yes. 170 00:09:45,627 --> 00:09:48,213 When you saw the injuries for the first time, 171 00:09:48,297 --> 00:09:52,926 did you comply with your mandated reporting obligations and call CPS? 172 00:09:53,010 --> 00:09:54,011 No. 173 00:09:54,094 --> 00:09:56,972 And then, when you received the child's statement, 174 00:09:57,055 --> 00:09:58,682 "my father beat me," 175 00:09:58,765 --> 00:10:00,892 did you call CPS? 176 00:10:00,976 --> 00:10:02,644 No, not the first time. 177 00:10:02,728 --> 00:10:05,897 You didn't call CPS and you didn't call law enforcement, did you? 178 00:10:05,981 --> 00:10:07,816 No, that's not my job. 179 00:10:07,899 --> 00:10:11,528 All right. So, let's switch gears to December 11th. 180 00:10:11,611 --> 00:10:14,865 You observed Terrence injured again, yes? 181 00:10:14,948 --> 00:10:15,949 Yes. 182 00:10:16,033 --> 00:10:18,994 This time, you took him again to the nurse, 183 00:10:19,077 --> 00:10:21,705 and more injuries were discovered. Is that right? 184 00:10:21,788 --> 00:10:23,123 Yes, that's right. 185 00:10:23,206 --> 00:10:25,751 And this time, CPS was called. Yes? 186 00:10:25,834 --> 00:10:26,835 Yes. 187 00:10:26,918 --> 00:10:29,421 And the school called CPS in an effort 188 00:10:29,504 --> 00:10:32,758 to avoid civil liability on your part. Is that right? 189 00:10:32,841 --> 00:10:35,260 No, we did it because it was the right thing to do. 190 00:10:35,344 --> 00:10:38,555 But you didn't do that on December first, the right thing, did you? 191 00:10:38,638 --> 00:10:40,891 That's argumentative, counsel. Let's move on. 192 00:10:40,974 --> 00:10:43,018 Witness is excused. Thank you very much. 193 00:10:45,562 --> 00:10:47,439 Call your next witness, sir. 194 00:10:47,522 --> 00:10:49,399 The Petitioner calls Taylor Neal. 195 00:10:52,319 --> 00:10:53,403 You may inquire, sir. 196 00:10:53,487 --> 00:10:55,656 Thank you, Your Honor. Miss Neal, are you employed? 197 00:10:55,739 --> 00:10:57,116 -Yes. -And where do you work? 198 00:10:57,199 --> 00:10:59,368 I'm a school nurse at P.S. 178 in Queens. 199 00:10:59,451 --> 00:11:01,703 Could you please describe for us the circumstances 200 00:11:01,787 --> 00:11:03,497 under which you first met Terrence? 201 00:11:03,580 --> 00:11:05,624 His teacher brought him in on December first 202 00:11:05,707 --> 00:11:07,209 because his face was bruised. 203 00:11:07,292 --> 00:11:09,127 Did you ask Terrence how he got bruised? 204 00:11:09,211 --> 00:11:11,505 Yes, I did. He said his father hit him. 205 00:11:11,588 --> 00:11:12,923 And what did you do? 206 00:11:13,006 --> 00:11:14,550 I immediately called the guidance counselor, 207 00:11:14,633 --> 00:11:16,468 and they called the parents. 208 00:11:16,551 --> 00:11:18,637 Were you present when the parents came to school? 209 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:19,763 Yes. 210 00:11:19,846 --> 00:11:21,890 Mr. Karamba, thank you for meeting with us today. 211 00:11:21,973 --> 00:11:24,476 It's attaché Karamba, actually. 212 00:11:25,977 --> 00:11:30,399 Of course. Representing the Country of Zimbabwe, I believe. 213 00:11:30,482 --> 00:11:31,566 That is correct. 214 00:11:32,651 --> 00:11:34,486 We're here to talk about your son. 215 00:11:36,613 --> 00:11:38,323 What has he done this time? 216 00:11:38,407 --> 00:11:39,950 It's what you did, Mr. Karamba. 217 00:11:42,077 --> 00:11:44,287 This morning, Terrence came to school 218 00:11:44,371 --> 00:11:47,040 with a noticeably bruised and swollen face. 219 00:11:47,124 --> 00:11:51,503 And he indicated to a teacher that the person who inflicted these wounds 220 00:11:51,586 --> 00:11:52,671 was his father. 221 00:11:54,214 --> 00:11:55,632 And what of it? 222 00:11:55,715 --> 00:11:56,842 What of it? 223 00:11:57,843 --> 00:11:59,428 So, you admit it, then. 224 00:11:59,511 --> 00:12:03,265 Yes. I admit to disciplining my son. 225 00:12:03,348 --> 00:12:06,101 That is what a parent is supposed to do. 226 00:12:06,184 --> 00:12:07,853 When a child needs correction, 227 00:12:07,936 --> 00:12:10,772 it is a parent's responsibility to provide it. 228 00:12:10,856 --> 00:12:15,193 Striking a person repeatedly in the face is considered assault in this country. 229 00:12:15,277 --> 00:12:19,656 And it's our responsibility at this school to protect the children under our care. 230 00:12:19,739 --> 00:12:24,202 Assault? No, this is not assault. It is love. 231 00:12:24,286 --> 00:12:29,082 This is what a parent does who cares about their child in my country. 232 00:12:29,166 --> 00:12:31,751 You see, you do not understand our ways. 233 00:12:31,835 --> 00:12:34,296 This is how my father raised me. 234 00:12:34,379 --> 00:12:37,007 And instead of becoming a criminal or a drug addict, 235 00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:39,301 like you are teaching him to be in this school, 236 00:12:39,384 --> 00:12:43,013 I became the diplomatic attaché to the United States of America. 237 00:12:43,096 --> 00:12:46,016 Well, here in America, sir, it's child abuse. 238 00:12:46,099 --> 00:12:47,642 And if this ever happens again, 239 00:12:47,726 --> 00:12:50,187 we will immediately call Child Protective Services, 240 00:12:50,270 --> 00:12:52,731 and they will remove Terrence from your home. 241 00:12:56,234 --> 00:12:58,737 Was there a time that you saw Terrence Karamba again, 242 00:12:58,820 --> 00:13:00,197 later on that month? 243 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,491 Yes, I saw him about ten days after that. 244 00:13:02,574 --> 00:13:04,618 And what happened when you saw Terrence Karamba? 245 00:13:04,701 --> 00:13:07,829 His teacher brought him in again because he had bruising to his face. 246 00:13:07,913 --> 00:13:10,248 As I took him to my office, I put my hand on his back 247 00:13:10,332 --> 00:13:13,418 and he visibly winced. That's when I knew something was wrong. 248 00:13:13,502 --> 00:13:16,087 And I asked him to remove his sweatshirt and his t-shirt. 249 00:13:16,171 --> 00:13:18,632 And I was absolutely horrified by what I saw. 250 00:13:18,715 --> 00:13:20,675 Miss Neal, if you can try and tell the judge 251 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:23,845 exactly what you saw when you removed Terrence's shirt. 252 00:13:23,929 --> 00:13:25,764 He had scars and welts on his back. 253 00:13:25,847 --> 00:13:28,725 After observing those scars on his back, 254 00:13:28,808 --> 00:13:30,644 what did you and the guidance counselor do? 255 00:13:30,727 --> 00:13:33,104 -We immediately called CPS. -Thank you, Miss Neal. 256 00:13:33,188 --> 00:13:34,523 -Counselor? -Now, Miss Neal, 257 00:13:34,606 --> 00:13:36,399 -December first... -Yes. 258 00:13:36,483 --> 00:13:38,444 ...that's when you first saw Terrence. Is that right? 259 00:13:38,527 --> 00:13:39,528 Yes, sir. 260 00:13:39,611 --> 00:13:41,530 And there were bruises about his face? 261 00:13:41,613 --> 00:13:44,366 -Yes. -And when you saw the bruises, 262 00:13:44,449 --> 00:13:46,660 you then asked the child how that happened? 263 00:13:46,743 --> 00:13:49,204 And the child said, my father beat me, or my father hit me? 264 00:13:49,287 --> 00:13:50,288 Yes. 265 00:13:50,372 --> 00:13:52,499 And of course, as a mandated reporter, 266 00:13:52,582 --> 00:13:54,834 you called CPS, did you not? 267 00:13:54,918 --> 00:13:56,879 Not the first time, no. I called the guidance counselor. 268 00:13:56,962 --> 00:14:00,173 So, nobody at the school, as far as you knew, 269 00:14:00,257 --> 00:14:03,927 on December first, called CPS, correct? 270 00:14:04,010 --> 00:14:05,136 Correct. 271 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:09,349 And you all sent the child home with the abuser on December first. 272 00:14:09,432 --> 00:14:10,725 Do I have that right? 273 00:14:10,809 --> 00:14:14,187 Yes, sir. His father said he was a diplomat and there was nothing we can do. 274 00:14:14,271 --> 00:14:16,314 And on December 11th, 275 00:14:16,398 --> 00:14:18,483 the child was brought in again with injuries? 276 00:14:18,567 --> 00:14:19,568 Yes. 277 00:14:19,651 --> 00:14:24,364 Any reports that you wrote to forward to CPS on this day? 278 00:14:24,447 --> 00:14:26,408 -No. -No further questions. 279 00:14:26,491 --> 00:14:27,951 Witness is now excused. 280 00:14:28,034 --> 00:14:29,452 Thank you, Your Honor. 281 00:14:29,536 --> 00:14:31,329 Call your next witness, Mr. Mentzer. 282 00:14:31,413 --> 00:14:33,331 The Petitioner calls Jaime Gilbert. 283 00:14:38,169 --> 00:14:40,130 -You may inquire, sir. -Thank you, Your Honor. 284 00:14:40,213 --> 00:14:41,548 Miss Gilbert, where are you employed? 285 00:14:41,631 --> 00:14:44,175 I am a social worker for the city of New York. 286 00:14:44,259 --> 00:14:46,636 And what does a social worker for the city of New York do? 287 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,807 First, we investigate allegations of child abuse in the home. 288 00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:52,559 Then, if we think it's warranted, 289 00:14:52,642 --> 00:14:57,063 we remove the abused children from the home and place them into foster care. 290 00:14:57,147 --> 00:14:58,732 Miss Gilbert, I want to call your attention 291 00:14:58,815 --> 00:15:00,734 to December 11th of this past year. 292 00:15:00,817 --> 00:15:02,777 Did you get involved with the investigation 293 00:15:02,861 --> 00:15:07,198 into an allegation of abuse involving an individual named Terrence Karamba? 294 00:15:07,282 --> 00:15:08,366 Yes, I did. 295 00:15:08,450 --> 00:15:12,495 And what did you observe, if anything, as to the physical condition of Terrence? 296 00:15:12,579 --> 00:15:15,081 Terrence had bruises on his face. 297 00:15:15,165 --> 00:15:21,796 He had about 15 to 20 scars in various stages of healing on his back. 298 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,634 Miss Gilbert, did you ask Terrence how he got those injuries? 299 00:15:25,717 --> 00:15:26,801 Yes, I did. 300 00:15:26,885 --> 00:15:28,762 And what did Terrence tell you 301 00:15:28,845 --> 00:15:31,014 as to how he got those injuries you're talking about? 302 00:15:31,097 --> 00:15:35,685 Terrence told me that his dad had been beating him on a regular basis. 303 00:15:35,769 --> 00:15:39,189 I'm sorry. I'll eat all my dinner next time. 304 00:15:39,272 --> 00:15:43,276 This is the consequence of disrespecting your mother. 305 00:15:49,783 --> 00:15:51,993 Stop! 306 00:16:02,003 --> 00:16:04,964 Did Terrence tell you any other places that he had been hit 307 00:16:05,048 --> 00:16:07,550 by his father other than on the back? 308 00:16:07,634 --> 00:16:09,595 He said he would sometimes hit him in the head. 309 00:16:09,678 --> 00:16:13,223 He would hit him with his fists and sometimes a belt. 310 00:16:13,306 --> 00:16:15,558 It's just that I don't like cabbage. 311 00:16:20,855 --> 00:16:23,024 What do you have to say for yourself? 312 00:16:25,694 --> 00:16:28,405 I can't hear you! 313 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,493 I'm sorry. 314 00:16:42,794 --> 00:16:44,713 Did you examine Terrence's body 315 00:16:44,796 --> 00:16:46,881 with an eye toward recording those injuries? 316 00:16:46,965 --> 00:16:50,051 I examined his body and I took pictures. 317 00:16:50,135 --> 00:16:51,553 Your Honor, if I may approach? 318 00:16:51,636 --> 00:16:52,971 You may approach the witness. 319 00:16:53,054 --> 00:16:57,350 I'm going to show you what's been previously marked Petitioner's A, B and C. 320 00:16:57,434 --> 00:16:59,770 Three photographs. And I'd ask you just to take a look at it. 321 00:16:59,853 --> 00:17:01,438 When you're done, please, look up. 322 00:17:04,607 --> 00:17:07,234 Miss Gilbert, do you recognize those pictures? 323 00:17:07,318 --> 00:17:08,361 Yes, I do. 324 00:17:08,444 --> 00:17:10,446 What do you recognize those photographs to be of? 325 00:17:10,530 --> 00:17:12,365 They are of Terrence's body. 326 00:17:12,449 --> 00:17:17,036 Miss Gilbert, when Terrence told you that his father had bound his wrists, 327 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,080 prior to hanging him from this pipe in the basement, 328 00:17:20,165 --> 00:17:23,877 did you see any physical evidence of that on his wrists? 329 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,378 Yes, there were scars on his wrists. 330 00:17:26,463 --> 00:17:31,426 When Terrence told you that he had been choked by his father, 331 00:17:31,509 --> 00:17:33,595 did you see any physical evidence of that? 332 00:17:33,678 --> 00:17:36,014 Yes, I did. There were marks on his neck. 333 00:17:36,097 --> 00:17:39,434 Now Miss Gilbert, after you spoke with Terrence, 334 00:17:39,517 --> 00:17:44,189 did you make a determination as to Terrence Karamba's safety and well-being? 335 00:17:44,272 --> 00:17:46,024 -I did. -And what was that? 336 00:17:46,107 --> 00:17:49,235 I determined that Terrence was in imminent danger to his welfare 337 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:51,571 if he stayed living with his parents. 338 00:17:51,654 --> 00:17:53,990 Thank you, Miss Gilbert. I have no further questions. 339 00:17:54,073 --> 00:17:55,742 -Cross. -So, Miss Gilbert, 340 00:17:55,825 --> 00:17:57,702 that's the standard, isn't it? 341 00:17:57,786 --> 00:18:01,581 Imminent risk of serious bodily injury or death. 342 00:18:01,664 --> 00:18:03,333 That equates to removal. 343 00:18:03,416 --> 00:18:04,542 Yes, absolutely. 344 00:18:04,626 --> 00:18:06,544 Now, you made this determination 345 00:18:06,628 --> 00:18:10,757 based upon your observations of the child's injuries, yes? 346 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:11,883 Yes. 347 00:18:11,966 --> 00:18:17,180 And you are aware that Terrence's father had diplomatic immunity. Is that right? 348 00:18:17,263 --> 00:18:18,431 I was informed. 349 00:18:18,515 --> 00:18:20,308 When you were informed of that, 350 00:18:20,391 --> 00:18:24,562 you made the conscious decision of not calling law enforcement 351 00:18:24,646 --> 00:18:26,564 because of the immunity. Is that right? 352 00:18:26,648 --> 00:18:31,986 I had him removed from his home whether he was a diplomat or not. 353 00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:35,281 My obligation is to remove the child out of danger, 354 00:18:35,365 --> 00:18:36,866 and that is what I did. 355 00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:38,368 No further questions. 356 00:18:38,451 --> 00:18:40,662 Thank you very much. The witness is excused. 357 00:18:40,745 --> 00:18:41,996 Mr. Mentzer? 358 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,291 Petitioner calls Dr. Riley Hills. 359 00:18:49,003 --> 00:18:50,547 You may inquire, Mr. Mentzer. 360 00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:52,257 Dr. Hills, what type of work do you do? 361 00:18:52,340 --> 00:18:54,300 I am a board certified child psychologist. 362 00:18:54,384 --> 00:18:57,387 And what does a board certified child psychologist do? 363 00:18:57,470 --> 00:19:01,891 I treat children who have been removed from the home due to allegations of abuse. 364 00:19:01,975 --> 00:19:04,060 Have you, during the course of your employment, 365 00:19:04,143 --> 00:19:06,020 -treated a boy named Terrence? -Yes. 366 00:19:06,104 --> 00:19:10,316 Did Terrence describe for you any abuse he has received by his family? 367 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,279 He did. He said that his father would beat him with his fists, 368 00:19:14,362 --> 00:19:17,073 with belts and electrical cord. 369 00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:21,786 Now, did Terrence tell you what the rest of his family was doing 370 00:19:21,870 --> 00:19:24,372 while his dad began to whip him? 371 00:19:25,456 --> 00:19:26,917 He told me that his father 372 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,378 made his mother and his sisters watch and ridicule him. 373 00:19:30,461 --> 00:19:34,257 Is the physical damage that you observed in Terrence 374 00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:37,635 the most important thing to you as his treating therapist? 375 00:19:37,719 --> 00:19:39,512 No, it's the psychological damage. 376 00:19:39,596 --> 00:19:40,639 And what do you mean by that? 377 00:19:40,722 --> 00:19:42,599 Well, he believes that his family hates him. 378 00:19:42,682 --> 00:19:44,475 Now, at some point, 379 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:46,686 you had to tell Terrence that he had to go back home. 380 00:19:46,769 --> 00:19:49,731 -Yes. -Now, when he actually went back 381 00:19:49,814 --> 00:19:52,233 to have this meeting to go back to his parents, 382 00:19:52,317 --> 00:19:54,736 did he react in any way in the car ride over? 383 00:19:54,819 --> 00:19:58,114 He did. He tried to jump out of the car while it was moving. 384 00:19:58,197 --> 00:19:59,699 And when he got to the building 385 00:19:59,782 --> 00:20:03,161 where he was supposed to be turned over to his parents, did he do anything? 386 00:20:03,244 --> 00:20:05,622 He attempted to jump out of a second story window. 387 00:20:05,705 --> 00:20:08,208 -To avoid seeing his parents? -That is correct. 388 00:20:08,291 --> 00:20:11,252 And did you make a determination as to whether it's safe 389 00:20:11,336 --> 00:20:13,880 for Terrence to return to his parents now? 390 00:20:13,963 --> 00:20:15,841 -Yes. -And what is that determination? 391 00:20:15,924 --> 00:20:17,675 That it is not safe to return him. 392 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:18,760 Thank you, Dr. Hills. 393 00:20:18,843 --> 00:20:19,969 You may inquire, sir. 394 00:20:20,053 --> 00:20:23,723 Now, in terms of your duties, 395 00:20:23,806 --> 00:20:28,978 you treat children of abuse and you attempt to protect them. 396 00:20:29,062 --> 00:20:30,355 -Is that right? -Yes. 397 00:20:30,438 --> 00:20:35,068 And in this case, would you say that removal from the home 398 00:20:35,151 --> 00:20:38,029 is equally damaging to the child 399 00:20:38,112 --> 00:20:41,491 as is the physical trauma inflicted by the father? 400 00:20:41,574 --> 00:20:43,284 I mean, it depends on the relationship, 401 00:20:43,368 --> 00:20:46,204 and we deal with it on a case-by-case basis, so. 402 00:20:46,287 --> 00:20:48,915 And what specifically have you done 403 00:20:48,998 --> 00:20:53,795 with respect to reunification therapy for Terrence and the family? 404 00:20:53,878 --> 00:20:57,173 We've made attempts to reunite Terrence with his mother, 405 00:20:57,256 --> 00:20:58,675 but he's still in fear of her. 406 00:20:58,758 --> 00:21:00,844 -How many attempts? -Two attempts. 407 00:21:00,927 --> 00:21:02,012 And in your opinion, 408 00:21:02,095 --> 00:21:04,764 given the circumstances, that's sufficient? 409 00:21:04,847 --> 00:21:06,724 -Yes. -No further questions. 410 00:21:06,808 --> 00:21:08,309 I The witness is excused. 411 00:21:09,727 --> 00:21:11,104 Is that your final witness, sir? 412 00:21:11,187 --> 00:21:13,439 Yes, Your Honor, the Petitioner rests. 413 00:21:13,523 --> 00:21:16,150 Do you want to renew your motion to dismiss, counselor? 414 00:21:16,234 --> 00:21:18,236 I would, Your Honor, at this point in time. 415 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:19,988 Now it's denied. 416 00:21:20,071 --> 00:21:22,323 The government's demand that the case be dismissed 417 00:21:22,407 --> 00:21:25,868 because the father and child were protected by diplomatic immunity, 418 00:21:25,952 --> 00:21:27,453 was just denied by me. 419 00:21:27,537 --> 00:21:30,832 The State, which was demanding the immediate return 420 00:21:30,915 --> 00:21:34,961 of the child to the father, was then forced to continue with the hearing. 421 00:21:35,044 --> 00:21:36,504 Please call your first witness. 422 00:21:36,587 --> 00:21:40,216 Yes, Your Honor. At this time, I would call Kirby Davidson to the stand. 423 00:21:41,926 --> 00:21:44,471 -Mr. Bakman, you may inquire, sir. -Thank you, Your Honor. 424 00:21:44,554 --> 00:21:45,888 Mr. Davidson, if you would, 425 00:21:45,972 --> 00:21:48,725 can you please tell the court your current profession or occupation? 426 00:21:48,808 --> 00:21:51,227 I work with the United States State Department. 427 00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:54,313 And with respect to that profession, sir, 428 00:21:54,397 --> 00:21:56,107 tell the court, if you would, 429 00:21:56,190 --> 00:21:59,027 what kind of training you've received and what it's encompassed. 430 00:21:59,110 --> 00:22:02,822 I've received extensive training in the areas of diplomatic immunity, 431 00:22:02,905 --> 00:22:06,701 uh, as it was afforded in the Vienna Treaty of 1961. 432 00:22:06,784 --> 00:22:08,369 Can you explain what that is? 433 00:22:08,453 --> 00:22:10,413 Well, diplomatic immunity was established 434 00:22:10,496 --> 00:22:14,125 so that sending states could send their diplomats and be assured 435 00:22:14,208 --> 00:22:18,212 that they would be free from criminal and civil prosecution in those states. 436 00:22:18,296 --> 00:22:22,050 How many diplomats and their families do we have abroad 437 00:22:22,133 --> 00:22:23,801 representing the United States? 438 00:22:23,885 --> 00:22:25,762 Upwards of 13,000. 439 00:22:25,845 --> 00:22:31,225 And we are concerned with upholding the provisions of the Vienna Convention 440 00:22:31,309 --> 00:22:34,729 for protection of those diplomats. Is that right? 441 00:22:34,812 --> 00:22:35,813 That is correct. 442 00:22:35,897 --> 00:22:38,649 Now, in this particular case, 443 00:22:38,733 --> 00:22:43,446 the nation of Zimbabwe itself has sent the State Department 444 00:22:43,529 --> 00:22:47,075 a request to have the child returned to the father 445 00:22:47,158 --> 00:22:50,244 and returned to the country of origin. Is that correct? 446 00:22:50,328 --> 00:22:51,370 That is correct. 447 00:22:51,454 --> 00:22:56,501 Does diplomatic immunity trump this court's decision 448 00:22:56,584 --> 00:22:59,087 to keep this child in protective custody? 449 00:22:59,170 --> 00:23:00,838 -It does, yes. -Why is that? 450 00:23:00,922 --> 00:23:05,051 Well, because the things we need to protect are diplomats around the world. 451 00:23:05,134 --> 00:23:09,055 So, hypothetically, if our foreign diplomats were say, 452 00:23:09,138 --> 00:23:14,060 in a country that enforced headscarves for women, 453 00:23:14,143 --> 00:23:18,189 and one of our diplomats or their family members 454 00:23:18,272 --> 00:23:22,026 were to go out without a headscarf, they could be arrested and prosecuted. 455 00:23:22,110 --> 00:23:24,446 And we don't want that. So, we have to afford the same here. 456 00:23:24,529 --> 00:23:27,740 We can't break the rules. This was agreed to in 1961 457 00:23:27,824 --> 00:23:29,659 in the Vienna Treaty and we need to adhere to it. 458 00:23:29,742 --> 00:23:31,160 No further questions. 459 00:23:31,244 --> 00:23:32,411 Any questions? 460 00:23:32,495 --> 00:23:34,330 -Oh, yes, Your Honor. -Okay. 461 00:23:34,413 --> 00:23:36,874 Mr. Davidson, you first got involved in this case 462 00:23:36,958 --> 00:23:40,253 by receiving a call from the Zimbabwe mission 463 00:23:40,336 --> 00:23:45,591 notifying you that the son of one of their diplomats was abducted. 464 00:23:45,675 --> 00:23:46,676 That is correct. 465 00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:49,387 And you of course, as a representative from the State Department, 466 00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:52,640 wanted to find out what happened. Why was this child removed? 467 00:23:52,723 --> 00:23:53,724 Yes. 468 00:23:53,808 --> 00:23:55,810 You conducted your own investigation, right? 469 00:23:55,893 --> 00:23:56,894 That's correct. 470 00:23:56,978 --> 00:23:59,355 And you found that he was removed for his own safety 471 00:23:59,438 --> 00:24:03,901 because the boy had accused his father of stripping him down naked 472 00:24:03,985 --> 00:24:08,197 and beating him over the naked back with an extension cord. 473 00:24:08,281 --> 00:24:09,783 You learned that to be the case, right? 474 00:24:09,866 --> 00:24:10,867 Yes, I did. 475 00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:13,369 And you found that those child protective workers 476 00:24:13,452 --> 00:24:17,373 felt that his life was in danger if he continued to live with his father. 477 00:24:17,456 --> 00:24:19,042 -Yes. -That's why they removed him. 478 00:24:19,125 --> 00:24:21,127 -Yes. -And you further found 479 00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:25,047 that the mission of Zimbabwe demanded 480 00:24:25,131 --> 00:24:28,885 that we immediately release him back to his family. 481 00:24:28,968 --> 00:24:35,933 And if he didn't, they reserved the right to retaliate against our diplomats. 482 00:24:36,017 --> 00:24:37,936 -That is correct. -You got a crisis on your hands. 483 00:24:38,019 --> 00:24:39,061 Yes, we do. 484 00:24:39,145 --> 00:24:41,022 Your job, how do we deal with this? 485 00:24:41,105 --> 00:24:42,899 And you found out you had options. 486 00:24:42,982 --> 00:24:46,402 One of those options was you can expel the diplomat. 487 00:24:46,485 --> 00:24:49,780 The problem is with that option, you expel the diplomat, 488 00:24:49,864 --> 00:24:53,826 you gotta send the child back to the home of the man who had been brutalizing him. 489 00:24:53,910 --> 00:24:54,994 -Right? -Yes. 490 00:24:55,077 --> 00:24:59,290 You had another option. You could have simply asked Zimbabwe 491 00:24:59,373 --> 00:25:01,834 to waive immunity in this case. 492 00:25:02,919 --> 00:25:03,961 Yes. 493 00:25:04,045 --> 00:25:07,298 Had you asked, and they gave you immunity, 494 00:25:07,381 --> 00:25:11,552 you could have kept this child in foster care. 495 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:12,845 -Right? -That is correct. 496 00:25:12,929 --> 00:25:18,226 So, we never even asked them to waive immunity, did we? 497 00:25:18,309 --> 00:25:19,310 No. 498 00:25:19,393 --> 00:25:23,689 In fact, the representative from Zimbabwe was specifically asked 499 00:25:23,773 --> 00:25:29,028 what would happen if this judge gives them what you're asking for 500 00:25:29,111 --> 00:25:31,447 and returns the child to Zimbabwe? 501 00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:36,744 What the representative from Zimbabwe said when specifically asked 502 00:25:36,827 --> 00:25:43,334 whether Terrence would go back to the man who hung him up and whipped him, 503 00:25:43,417 --> 00:25:45,211 -they said, "no comment." -Correct. 504 00:25:45,294 --> 00:25:49,882 The truth is that if this court gives you what you're asking for, 505 00:25:49,966 --> 00:25:52,134 and sends this boy back to Zimbabwe, 506 00:25:52,218 --> 00:25:54,262 you really don't know what's gonna happen to him. 507 00:25:54,345 --> 00:25:56,013 -No. -Thank you. 508 00:25:56,097 --> 00:25:57,640 -Witness is excused. -Thank you. 509 00:25:57,723 --> 00:25:58,557 Next witness, please. 510 00:25:58,641 --> 00:26:02,353 I would call Floyd Karamba to the stand, Your Honor. 511 00:26:06,899 --> 00:26:08,276 You may inquire, sir. 512 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,529 Thank you, Your Honor. All right. Mr. Karamba, 513 00:26:11,612 --> 00:26:14,115 what is your current profession or occupation, sir? 514 00:26:14,198 --> 00:26:18,577 I am a diplomat representing the Republic of Zimbabwe. 515 00:26:18,661 --> 00:26:19,662 Do you have children? 516 00:26:19,745 --> 00:26:20,788 -I do. -How many? 517 00:26:20,871 --> 00:26:23,124 -Three. -And their ages? 518 00:26:23,207 --> 00:26:27,837 I have a nine-year-old son and two daughters, ages seven and three. 519 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,842 Your boy and your older daughter go to school in Queens. Is that correct? 520 00:26:32,925 --> 00:26:34,260 That is correct. 521 00:26:34,343 --> 00:26:40,349 And tell me, on December first, were you called to come down to the school? 522 00:26:40,433 --> 00:26:43,477 -Yes. -And when you got to the school, 523 00:26:43,561 --> 00:26:45,730 -were you questioned? -Yes. 524 00:26:45,813 --> 00:26:48,566 And what kind of questions were asked of you? 525 00:26:48,649 --> 00:26:54,447 They asked me if I knew how my son got these, uh, bruises on his face. 526 00:26:54,530 --> 00:26:57,366 And they asked me if I beat my son. 527 00:26:57,450 --> 00:26:59,618 And what was your response to that question? 528 00:26:59,702 --> 00:27:01,203 My response was "no." 529 00:27:01,287 --> 00:27:06,584 And did they in fact tell you that Terrence stated to them, 530 00:27:06,667 --> 00:27:08,544 my father beats me. 531 00:27:08,627 --> 00:27:09,837 Yes. 532 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,672 Do you discipline your son? 533 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:14,133 Yes. I spank my son 534 00:27:14,216 --> 00:27:16,886 on his rear-end, above his clothing. 535 00:27:18,387 --> 00:27:22,433 So, they let you take the children home with you. Is that right? 536 00:27:22,516 --> 00:27:23,601 Yes, they did. 537 00:27:23,684 --> 00:27:26,645 Now, ten days later, did you get another call? 538 00:27:26,729 --> 00:27:27,730 Yes. 539 00:27:27,813 --> 00:27:31,942 And on December 11th, were you again confronted by the school 540 00:27:32,026 --> 00:27:34,987 with allegations of additional child abuse? 541 00:27:35,071 --> 00:27:36,072 Yes. 542 00:27:36,155 --> 00:27:37,365 And what did you say? 543 00:27:37,448 --> 00:27:40,743 I told them that I did not beat my son. 544 00:27:40,826 --> 00:27:43,412 And no one, between December first, 545 00:27:43,496 --> 00:27:49,251 when the school allegedly heard Terrence say, my dad beats me, 546 00:27:49,335 --> 00:27:51,629 and they saw bruises on his face, 547 00:27:51,712 --> 00:27:56,175 no law enforcement, no police officer came knocking and saying, 548 00:27:56,258 --> 00:27:59,387 we are here to investigate child abuse allegations. 549 00:27:59,470 --> 00:28:00,471 No. 550 00:28:00,554 --> 00:28:03,224 And CPS didn't come down either, did they? 551 00:28:03,307 --> 00:28:04,308 No, they did not. 552 00:28:04,392 --> 00:28:08,687 On December 11th, did things change? Was your son taken away from you? 553 00:28:08,771 --> 00:28:09,772 Yes. 554 00:28:09,855 --> 00:28:12,691 Have you since demanded the city of New York 555 00:28:12,775 --> 00:28:15,111 -to return your son to you? -Yes. 556 00:28:15,194 --> 00:28:17,363 Now, in your culture, sir, 557 00:28:17,446 --> 00:28:21,867 does that culture allow and permit corporal punishment of a child? 558 00:28:21,951 --> 00:28:23,536 -Yes. -In what way? 559 00:28:23,619 --> 00:28:28,666 You can do a number of things, but spanking a child above the clothing 560 00:28:28,749 --> 00:28:30,084 is one of those methods. 561 00:28:30,167 --> 00:28:35,005 And were you in fact disciplined in that manner by your father growing up? 562 00:28:35,089 --> 00:28:36,215 Yes, I was. 563 00:28:36,298 --> 00:28:38,717 And when you discipline him, 564 00:28:38,801 --> 00:28:41,512 do you tie him up to a pipe in your basement 565 00:28:41,595 --> 00:28:43,681 and then whip him with an electrical cord? 566 00:28:43,764 --> 00:28:44,849 No. 567 00:28:44,932 --> 00:28:48,769 Do you believe, sir, that if Terrence is returned to you 568 00:28:48,853 --> 00:28:53,482 he is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, 569 00:28:53,566 --> 00:28:55,943 -if he's returned to you? -Not at all. 570 00:28:56,026 --> 00:28:57,236 No further questions. 571 00:28:57,319 --> 00:28:58,362 You may inquire, sir. 572 00:28:59,363 --> 00:29:02,825 Mr. Karamba, did I hear that right? That you did nothing more 573 00:29:02,908 --> 00:29:07,079 than spank your son Terrence over the clothes on the behind? 574 00:29:07,163 --> 00:29:08,956 Yes, this is where he was struck, yes. 575 00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:12,460 So now, you've heard the testimony of his teacher 576 00:29:12,543 --> 00:29:16,672 who said that he observed cuts and bruising to his face, right? 577 00:29:16,755 --> 00:29:17,798 Yes. 578 00:29:17,882 --> 00:29:21,093 You've heard the testimony of Taylor Neal, 579 00:29:21,177 --> 00:29:26,390 who testified that Terrence said you caused those injuries to his face. 580 00:29:26,474 --> 00:29:27,516 Yes. 581 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:33,147 And you've also heard the testimony of Miss Gilbert, the social worker, 582 00:29:33,230 --> 00:29:37,902 who testified that Terrence told her that you strung him up naked 583 00:29:37,985 --> 00:29:40,404 down in the basement and beat him with an extension cord. 584 00:29:40,488 --> 00:29:41,572 -Right? -Yes. 585 00:29:41,655 --> 00:29:44,074 But that's all a pack of lies? 586 00:29:44,158 --> 00:29:46,994 I believe it to be all lies, yes. 587 00:29:47,077 --> 00:29:52,666 So, your nine-year-old son lied to his teacher when he said you beat him? 588 00:29:52,750 --> 00:29:55,085 Unfortunately, Terrence does lie. 589 00:29:55,169 --> 00:29:58,339 Now, you talked to this court about corporal punishment. 590 00:29:58,422 --> 00:30:02,718 You said, in your country, this is a method for disciplining children. 591 00:30:02,801 --> 00:30:03,802 Yes. 592 00:30:03,886 --> 00:30:06,847 So, you believe that this corporal punishment, 593 00:30:06,931 --> 00:30:09,683 this method of discipline worked for you, right? 594 00:30:09,767 --> 00:30:12,686 Yes. My father would use corporal punishment. 595 00:30:12,770 --> 00:30:17,107 He would spank me with a belt and I turned out just fine. 596 00:30:17,191 --> 00:30:20,277 When you say you turned out just fine, you're a successful diplomat, right? 597 00:30:20,361 --> 00:30:22,321 -Yes. -But you're also a man 598 00:30:22,404 --> 00:30:23,823 who beats his own children, aren't you? 599 00:30:23,906 --> 00:30:25,908 -I discipline my children. -Step back, counselor. 600 00:30:25,991 --> 00:30:30,496 You're also a man whose own kid would rather jump out of a moving car 601 00:30:30,579 --> 00:30:32,498 than come back and live with you, right? 602 00:30:32,581 --> 00:30:36,293 I have never seen my son jump out of a car and I do not believe this behavior. 603 00:30:36,377 --> 00:30:43,133 Now, as somebody who has only spanked his son 604 00:30:43,217 --> 00:30:47,805 over a clothed behind with a belt. Your Honor, can I please approach? 605 00:30:47,888 --> 00:30:49,139 Absolutely. 606 00:30:49,223 --> 00:30:53,018 Can you tell me, Mr. Karamba, how your son got those? 607 00:31:00,734 --> 00:31:03,737 At this time, I would like to invoke my diplomatic immunity. 608 00:31:03,821 --> 00:31:05,114 Counselor? 609 00:31:05,197 --> 00:31:08,617 Your Honor, I believe he has a right to do that at any stage of the proceedings. 610 00:31:08,701 --> 00:31:11,579 Well, Mr. Bakman, he does have that right. 611 00:31:11,662 --> 00:31:14,456 He chose to waive that right when you called him as a witness. 612 00:31:14,540 --> 00:31:18,085 If he now chooses, as a result of evidence that he has seen, 613 00:31:18,168 --> 00:31:22,715 to invoke his right, that's fine, but I'm going to strike his entire testimony. 614 00:31:22,798 --> 00:31:26,343 In that case, Your Honor, I'd like to ask for a five minute recess. 615 00:31:26,427 --> 00:31:28,637 Allow me sufficient time to talk to my client. 616 00:31:28,721 --> 00:31:30,598 -Absolutely. -Thank you. 617 00:31:32,391 --> 00:31:34,893 Let me explain what just happened here. 618 00:31:34,977 --> 00:31:39,481 Floyd Karamba declined to answer certain questions on cross-examination, 619 00:31:39,565 --> 00:31:42,484 invoking diplomatic immunity. 620 00:31:42,568 --> 00:31:45,154 But the law doesn't allow you to pick and choose 621 00:31:45,237 --> 00:31:47,781 what questions you will and will not answer. 622 00:31:47,865 --> 00:31:53,746 If he decides to invoke diplomatic status, his entire testimony would be stricken. 623 00:31:53,829 --> 00:31:55,497 Let's see what he decides. 624 00:31:56,707 --> 00:31:57,750 Counselor? 625 00:31:57,833 --> 00:32:00,127 Your Honor, I've spoken to my client at this point. 626 00:32:00,210 --> 00:32:03,088 He advises me out of the love for his children, 627 00:32:03,172 --> 00:32:05,257 and the fact that he wants his son back, 628 00:32:05,341 --> 00:32:10,429 he is waiving his diplomatic status so that he can get his child back. 629 00:32:10,512 --> 00:32:13,599 Fine. Mr. Mentzer, you want to ask your question again? 630 00:32:13,682 --> 00:32:15,809 -Yes. You've seen the picture? -I have. 631 00:32:15,893 --> 00:32:18,812 I ask you again, Mr. Karamba, how did Terrence get those whip marks? 632 00:32:18,896 --> 00:32:22,608 What happens in my house stays in my house. 633 00:32:22,691 --> 00:32:24,276 Are you now owning up to what you did? 634 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,529 What happens in my house stays in my house! 635 00:32:27,613 --> 00:32:28,906 You did whip that boy! 636 00:32:28,989 --> 00:32:32,326 Sir, what happens in my house stays in my house! 637 00:32:32,409 --> 00:32:34,536 Terrence wasn't lying, you are! 638 00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:36,580 Objection, argumentative. 639 00:32:36,664 --> 00:32:40,876 The last part is stricken. All right. Mr. Karamba, you can take a seat. 640 00:32:43,962 --> 00:32:46,757 Mr. Mentzer, would you like to make a closing argument, sir? 641 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,175 Thank you, Your Honor. 642 00:32:48,258 --> 00:32:52,513 The reality here is there really is no dispute over what happened. 643 00:32:52,596 --> 00:32:54,932 This man, Floyd Karamba, battered his child, 644 00:32:55,015 --> 00:32:58,769 he abused his child, he placed his child's life in danger. 645 00:32:58,852 --> 00:33:04,024 His health and safety are in jeopardy were he to be sent back to Zimbabwe. 646 00:33:04,108 --> 00:33:05,443 And the State Department knows this. 647 00:33:05,526 --> 00:33:10,114 Yet, the State Department would rather maintain their cozy relationship 648 00:33:10,197 --> 00:33:15,744 with the country of Zimbabwe by not even asking for a waiver of immunity. 649 00:33:15,828 --> 00:33:20,290 That's all we're asking here for, is for them to start doing their job 650 00:33:20,374 --> 00:33:24,128 and ask Zimbabwe for a waiver of immunity here 651 00:33:24,211 --> 00:33:27,172 so that this man can be prosecuted, and more importantly, 652 00:33:27,256 --> 00:33:29,383 that this child can be protected. 653 00:33:29,466 --> 00:33:32,177 Because if he's sent back, his life will be in danger. 654 00:33:32,261 --> 00:33:33,303 Thank you, Your Honor. 655 00:33:33,387 --> 00:33:35,347 Thank you. Mr. Bakman? 656 00:33:35,431 --> 00:33:40,144 Quite frankly, Judge, I find counsel's argument offensive. 657 00:33:40,227 --> 00:33:42,730 The implications are that the State Department 658 00:33:42,813 --> 00:33:47,818 does not want to protect this child. That couldn't be further from the truth. 659 00:33:47,901 --> 00:33:51,613 The State Department wants this child protected. 660 00:33:51,697 --> 00:33:57,911 Just not on U.S. soil. The protection has to come from the sending state. 661 00:33:57,995 --> 00:34:02,249 That's Federal law and because of Separation of Powers. 662 00:34:02,332 --> 00:34:09,339 As callous as it may sound, protection for this child must take place in Zimbabwe 663 00:34:09,422 --> 00:34:12,509 given their demand for the child's return. 664 00:34:12,592 --> 00:34:16,346 This court is divested of jurisdiction. Submitted. 665 00:34:17,431 --> 00:34:20,684 The scope of this hearing is a limited one to determine whether or not 666 00:34:20,768 --> 00:34:25,397 the immediate future of this child's life would be at risk of further abuse, 667 00:34:25,481 --> 00:34:29,318 either physical or psychological, if he were returned home. 668 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,446 It seems to me that this country has failed this child. 669 00:34:32,529 --> 00:34:33,864 Not once, but twice. 670 00:34:33,947 --> 00:34:37,074 The city of New York failed the child on December first. 671 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,078 There were visible signs of abuse. 672 00:34:40,161 --> 00:34:44,917 And rather than doing a full evaluation of the child in the nurse's office, 673 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,087 the nurse, the social worker in school, and the teacher 674 00:34:49,170 --> 00:34:53,550 chose to bring father in, without examining the child further, 675 00:34:53,634 --> 00:34:56,428 which would have shown clearly 676 00:34:56,512 --> 00:35:00,516 a pattern of consistent abuse over a long period of time. 677 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:04,353 Because those scars, some are fresh, some are old. 678 00:35:04,436 --> 00:35:06,647 They were certainly there on December first. 679 00:35:06,730 --> 00:35:10,567 Failure number one of a governmental agency towards this child. 680 00:35:10,651 --> 00:35:15,948 Some ten days later, the child was in fact beaten again by his father, 681 00:35:16,031 --> 00:35:20,494 who for all intents and purposes acknowledges that in his outburst here 682 00:35:20,577 --> 00:35:23,789 because he considers whatever happens in his home 683 00:35:23,872 --> 00:35:26,959 inviolate from inspection of authority. 684 00:35:27,042 --> 00:35:29,503 The government of the United States of America 685 00:35:29,586 --> 00:35:34,675 has the obligation, in my view, to at least attempt 686 00:35:34,758 --> 00:35:37,469 to reach out to the government of Zimbabwe, 687 00:35:37,553 --> 00:35:40,347 show their representative these photographs 688 00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:45,978 and say, we would like some time to ensure that the child, if returned, is safe. 689 00:35:46,061 --> 00:35:49,189 The government of the United States chose not to do that. 690 00:35:49,273 --> 00:35:53,068 Two failures. I think that it is the responsibility of the government 691 00:35:53,151 --> 00:35:55,362 to do exactly what Mr. Mentzer is requesting, 692 00:35:55,445 --> 00:35:58,907 which is to ask the sending state, and that is Zimbabwe, 693 00:35:58,991 --> 00:36:02,619 to take a fresh look at these fresh welts. In the interim, 694 00:36:02,703 --> 00:36:06,498 I find that the child is in fact at risk of being further abused and neglected. 695 00:36:06,582 --> 00:36:09,960 We will pick a trial date for a full trial on this date. 696 00:36:10,043 --> 00:36:14,631 Until that time, the child remand to Child Protective Services is continued. 697 00:36:16,675 --> 00:36:20,721 Well, believe it or not, my ruling caused a bit of a firestorm 698 00:36:20,804 --> 00:36:23,807 when I continued the child in protective custody. 699 00:36:23,891 --> 00:36:27,394 The United States State Department immediately appealed 700 00:36:27,477 --> 00:36:30,063 and the case was heard in federal court. 701 00:36:30,147 --> 00:36:32,316 This time, the key legal concept 702 00:36:32,399 --> 00:36:35,152 was called the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution 703 00:36:35,235 --> 00:36:40,240 which establishes that federal laws and treaties made under federal authority 704 00:36:40,324 --> 00:36:43,619 supercede any laws made by a state, 705 00:36:43,702 --> 00:36:48,290 and state courts must defer to those federal laws and treaties. 706 00:36:48,373 --> 00:36:50,709 But the question for me remained: 707 00:36:50,792 --> 00:36:56,798 What about the issue of a little boy who everyone now admitted had been abused? 708 00:36:56,882 --> 00:36:58,884 Here's how it went. 709 00:36:59,968 --> 00:37:01,970 Counsel, note your appearances. 710 00:37:02,054 --> 00:37:04,056 Good morning, Your Honors. Larry Bakman on behalf 711 00:37:04,139 --> 00:37:07,142 of the government representing the United States Department of State. 712 00:37:07,225 --> 00:37:09,686 Good morning. For the Respondent Terrence Karamba 713 00:37:09,770 --> 00:37:11,647 and the city of New York, I'm Dan Mentzer. 714 00:37:11,730 --> 00:37:14,858 Mr. Bakman, you may proceed with your opening statement. 715 00:37:14,942 --> 00:37:20,155 Thank you, Your Honors. Floyd Karamba is a diplomatic envoy 716 00:37:20,238 --> 00:37:22,282 from the nation of Zimbabwe. 717 00:37:22,366 --> 00:37:26,453 As such, he has absolute diplomatic immunity, 718 00:37:26,536 --> 00:37:31,500 precluding him from being either criminally charged or civilly charged. 719 00:37:31,583 --> 00:37:37,923 And the Supremacy Clause prevents the state or the city of New York 720 00:37:38,006 --> 00:37:41,802 from attempting to dictate in foreign policy. 721 00:37:41,885 --> 00:37:47,933 And the only entity that can waive diplomatic immunity 722 00:37:48,016 --> 00:37:51,895 is the sending country, the nation of Zimbabwe. 723 00:37:51,979 --> 00:37:58,068 And because they refuse to do that, there is no waiver of immunity, 724 00:37:58,151 --> 00:38:01,863 and Floyd Karamba and his child Terrence Karamba 725 00:38:01,947 --> 00:38:05,701 are not subject of the city of New York. Thank you. 726 00:38:05,784 --> 00:38:08,537 Thank you, Mr. Bakman. Mr. Mentzer, please. 727 00:38:08,620 --> 00:38:10,288 Thank you, Judge. 728 00:38:10,372 --> 00:38:13,583 If you give the State Department what they're asking for, 729 00:38:13,667 --> 00:38:16,795 and send Terrence Karamba back to Zimbabwe, 730 00:38:16,878 --> 00:38:18,588 his life will be in danger 731 00:38:18,672 --> 00:38:23,385 because Floyd Karamba doesn't think he did anything wrong. 732 00:38:23,468 --> 00:38:28,890 So, what we want this court to do is to compel the State Department 733 00:38:28,974 --> 00:38:33,020 to do what they haven't done yet, and that is to ask Zimbabwe 734 00:38:33,103 --> 00:38:37,566 for a waiver of immunity so that we can prosecute Floyd Karamba 735 00:38:37,649 --> 00:38:40,861 for what he's done to his son. And more importantly, 736 00:38:40,944 --> 00:38:45,907 with a waiver of immunity, Terrence Karamba will continue to receive 737 00:38:45,991 --> 00:38:50,579 the therapy he so desperately needs. Thank you. 738 00:38:50,662 --> 00:38:51,830 Thank you, Mr. Mentzer. 739 00:38:51,913 --> 00:38:54,416 We will now recess to deliberate. 740 00:38:57,044 --> 00:38:59,755 We are not a unanimous court. 741 00:38:59,838 --> 00:39:02,424 Judge DiMango and I are in the majority. 742 00:39:02,507 --> 00:39:05,719 And Judge DiMango will present the majority opinion. 743 00:39:05,802 --> 00:39:09,264 And Judge Acker will then give the dissent. 744 00:39:09,347 --> 00:39:12,976 The essence of this appeal involves the issue of diplomatic immunity 745 00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:15,896 as it pertains to child protective proceedings 746 00:39:15,979 --> 00:39:18,065 conducted pursuant to the Family Court Act. 747 00:39:18,148 --> 00:39:21,151 The alleged abuse suffered by the child Terrence 748 00:39:21,234 --> 00:39:24,154 at the hands of his father in the name of discipline 749 00:39:24,237 --> 00:39:27,407 indeed offends even the hardest of sensibilities. 750 00:39:27,491 --> 00:39:29,910 But the question presented here is, 751 00:39:29,993 --> 00:39:34,539 did the Family Court have the authority to exercise jurisdiction 752 00:39:34,623 --> 00:39:38,877 over the parties to hear the case and to reach a decision 753 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,672 on the merits in light of the assertions of diplomatic immunity 754 00:39:42,756 --> 00:39:47,219 by both the United States and the sending state, Zimbabwe. 755 00:39:47,302 --> 00:39:51,014 The answer to the question is a resounding no. 756 00:39:51,098 --> 00:39:55,393 Diplomatic immunity is considered the cornerstone of diplomacy. 757 00:39:55,477 --> 00:39:58,522 It is intended to protect the diplomat and their families 758 00:39:58,605 --> 00:40:02,317 from the service of civil process, criminal prosecution 759 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,694 and the jurisdiction of the courts 760 00:40:04,778 --> 00:40:07,864 of the foreign states of which they are stationed. 761 00:40:07,948 --> 00:40:11,034 Were we to affirm the decision of the Family Court, 762 00:40:11,118 --> 00:40:14,996 our decision could be viewed as condoning this misapplication of the law. 763 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,290 And so, based upon the foregoing reasons, 764 00:40:17,374 --> 00:40:23,171 it is with a heavy heart that the lower court's decision is reversed. 765 00:40:25,048 --> 00:40:28,135 My colleagues are right to point out the importance 766 00:40:28,218 --> 00:40:32,180 of the doctrine of diplomatic immunity, and how critical that doctrine is 767 00:40:32,264 --> 00:40:36,434 to our diplomatic services and international interests around the world. 768 00:40:36,518 --> 00:40:39,771 But they make a false and unnecessary choice. 769 00:40:39,855 --> 00:40:43,066 The City's request won't compromise our diplomats. 770 00:40:43,150 --> 00:40:45,652 The City simply seeks a stay 771 00:40:45,735 --> 00:40:49,406 so that all of the various interests at stake here may be heard. 772 00:40:49,489 --> 00:40:52,826 Diplomats and their families have a right to immunity, 773 00:40:52,909 --> 00:40:56,997 but diplomats and their families also have a right to asylum, 774 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,834 and to have those claims fairly and properly adjudicated. 775 00:41:00,917 --> 00:41:04,880 That is the law too. Here, in this country, 776 00:41:04,963 --> 00:41:09,759 a child endures this, and we can't maintain a simple stay 777 00:41:09,843 --> 00:41:12,345 that would permit him to complete a request for help? 778 00:41:12,429 --> 00:41:16,600 And to satisfy the legal requirements of properly hearing an asylum claim? 779 00:41:16,683 --> 00:41:20,312 If the State Department's commitment to human rights is to mean anything, 780 00:41:20,395 --> 00:41:23,565 if it cares to send a message that this will not be tolerated 781 00:41:23,648 --> 00:41:25,442 in these United States, 782 00:41:25,525 --> 00:41:30,238 it has the duty to try to bring this abuser to justice. 783 00:41:30,322 --> 00:41:34,576 It has the duty to ask. I respectfully dissent. 784 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,498 Terrence Karamba was removed from his foster home and returned to Zimbabwe 785 00:41:40,582 --> 00:41:43,126 to live with his family. 786 00:41:43,210 --> 00:41:49,257 His father, Floyd Karamba was never prosecuted for child abuse. 787 00:41:49,341 --> 00:41:54,304 How could our government place this child in harm's way without protection? 788 00:41:54,387 --> 00:41:58,433 Even though Terrence Karamba was ultimately sent back to Zimbabwe, 789 00:41:58,516 --> 00:42:03,063 my ruling, which was to have the child remain in protective custody, 790 00:42:03,146 --> 00:42:07,234 caused the case to delay as it wound its way through the court system. 791 00:42:07,317 --> 00:42:10,612 This enabled certain safeguards to be put in place 792 00:42:10,695 --> 00:42:14,616 for the child's protection when he was ultimately returned to his family. 793 00:42:14,699 --> 00:42:20,538 The complex issue of diplomatic immunity continues to plague the justice system. 794 00:42:20,622 --> 00:42:24,501 Every year, it seems, a new case of a diplomat 795 00:42:24,584 --> 00:42:28,713 committing a horrendous crime is protected by diplomatic immunity. 796 00:42:28,797 --> 00:42:34,010 Sometimes, the rule of law, when you factor in common sense, 797 00:42:34,094 --> 00:42:37,973 just doesn't equal justice. 798 00:42:38,056 --> 00:42:41,518 JUDGE JUDY PRESENTS JUSTICE ON TRIAL 798 00:42:42,305 --> 00:43:42,319