Heir to an Execution: A Granddaughter's Story

1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,074 Watch Online Movies and Series for FREE www.osdb.link/lm 2 00:00:17,719 --> 00:00:19,419 I know that the story is that... 3 00:00:19,439 --> 00:00:21,539 the people who bought the plot for them 4 00:00:22,096 --> 00:00:25,646 had to lie and say it was for somebody else... 5 00:00:28,432 --> 00:00:31,332 So from the beginning nobody even wanted their dead bodies. 6 00:00:34,466 --> 00:00:36,066 Those are my grandparents. 7 00:01:05,149 --> 00:01:06,530 Sorry... Hello. 8 00:01:07,177 --> 00:01:09,877 I'm looking for a particular grave. 9 00:01:10,235 --> 00:01:11,635 Can you give me a map? 10 00:01:11,655 --> 00:01:12,655 <i>What's the name?</i> 11 00:01:12,675 --> 00:01:13,675 It's Rosenberg. 12 00:01:14,602 --> 00:01:17,052 Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. 13 00:01:17,376 --> 00:01:18,376 No. 14 00:01:19,292 --> 00:01:21,442 You can't do that location? 15 00:01:25,783 --> 00:01:30,322 I mean, this is... this is my family. 16 00:01:58,050 --> 00:02:02,750 Dateline, Sing Sing. June 19th, 1953. 17 00:02:03,473 --> 00:02:06,473 Someone had passed America's atomic bomb secrets to Russia. 18 00:02:06,492 --> 00:02:09,342 This was an undisputed fact that the whole world knew. 19 00:02:09,428 --> 00:02:11,428 The federal government had laid the crime 20 00:02:11,448 --> 00:02:13,498 at the doorstep of two native new yorkers, 21 00:02:13,532 --> 00:02:14,882 Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, 22 00:02:15,043 --> 00:02:16,693 but to the end they both protested 23 00:02:16,713 --> 00:02:18,180 their innocence of the theft. 24 00:02:18,204 --> 00:02:21,303 In April of 1951, the federal court 25 00:02:21,372 --> 00:02:24,574 of judge Irving R. Kaufman found the pair guilty as charged, 26 00:02:24,643 --> 00:02:26,220 and sentenced them to death in the electric chair 27 00:02:26,244 --> 00:02:28,948 to pay for their crime of treason. 28 00:02:57,007 --> 00:02:59,053 I grew up with images of my grandparents in my house. 29 00:02:59,077 --> 00:03:01,277 There was<i> the Picasso.</i> 30 00:03:01,346 --> 00:03:03,179 There was<i> the Leger.</i> 31 00:03:03,248 --> 00:03:07,149 But I didn't ask my father too many questions about them, 32 00:03:07,218 --> 00:03:09,885 because I didn't want to bring up painful memories. 33 00:03:09,954 --> 00:03:13,623 ...trying to keep it a one run game in the top of the ninth... 34 00:03:13,692 --> 00:03:14,624 Damn. 35 00:03:14,693 --> 00:03:17,260 Damn. 36 00:03:17,329 --> 00:03:19,896 What are you doing, dad? 37 00:03:19,965 --> 00:03:21,497 They're down. 38 00:03:21,566 --> 00:03:23,499 Damnit. 39 00:03:23,568 --> 00:03:27,169 I didn't follow baseball 'til the world series of 1952, 40 00:03:27,238 --> 00:03:31,741 and in 1953, I watched baseball all summer long, 41 00:03:31,810 --> 00:03:34,176 and that's when I got hooked. 42 00:03:34,245 --> 00:03:39,048 I was a Dodger fan because Julius Rosenberg was a Dodger fan. 43 00:03:39,117 --> 00:03:40,482 I always used to say that. 44 00:03:40,551 --> 00:03:42,263 "I am a Dodger fan 'cause my father was a Dodger fan." 45 00:03:42,287 --> 00:03:46,755 And, but watching it was a good distraction. 46 00:03:46,824 --> 00:03:49,725 In fact, Robby and I were watching a baseball game, 47 00:03:49,794 --> 00:03:52,394 it was in actuality, it was a Philadelphia athletics game 48 00:03:52,463 --> 00:03:54,997 the afternoon of June 19th when they kept interrupting it 49 00:03:55,066 --> 00:03:56,944 with all these horrible announcements 50 00:03:56,968 --> 00:04:00,006 about what was gonna happen that day. 51 00:04:08,679 --> 00:04:11,480 Kind of a ghastly climax to those curious lives 52 00:04:11,549 --> 00:04:14,450 that had started out in the poverty 53 00:04:14,519 --> 00:04:16,452 of the Lower East Side here in New York, 54 00:04:16,521 --> 00:04:20,056 which for a time had shown great promise. 55 00:04:20,125 --> 00:04:22,925 He was a graduate electrical engineer. 56 00:04:22,994 --> 00:04:25,628 She had hoped to be an opera singer. 57 00:04:25,697 --> 00:04:28,063 Had a good voice... 58 00:04:28,132 --> 00:04:30,599 They were sort of childhood sweethearts. 59 00:04:30,668 --> 00:04:33,270 Everything to live for. 60 00:04:33,339 --> 00:04:35,772 Couple children... 61 00:04:35,841 --> 00:04:39,141 Residence in this great country... 62 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:41,814 With all of its opportunities. 63 00:04:43,081 --> 00:04:44,425 I like these pictures, these are so cool. 64 00:04:44,449 --> 00:04:47,216 You know, this close-up is nice. 65 00:04:47,285 --> 00:04:49,585 Because if you look at the original, 66 00:04:49,654 --> 00:04:51,620 you can actually see how dirty my nails were. 67 00:04:51,689 --> 00:04:54,657 And this is before Robby's hair was cut. 68 00:04:54,726 --> 00:04:57,460 And how old were you guys there? 69 00:04:57,529 --> 00:04:59,862 Well, he's three and I'm seven, 70 00:04:59,931 --> 00:05:01,497 or he's two and I'm six? 71 00:05:01,566 --> 00:05:03,244 This is a very famous photo right here, 72 00:05:03,268 --> 00:05:07,336 because, this is probably in central park, 73 00:05:07,405 --> 00:05:10,640 and it's probably right after they got married. 74 00:05:10,709 --> 00:05:13,576 And it's you know really, really nice, 75 00:05:13,645 --> 00:05:16,349 they're very, very happy, obviously. 76 00:05:17,848 --> 00:05:21,517 I mean, Robby and I can say that there was warmth, 77 00:05:21,586 --> 00:05:23,253 there was love, there was cuddling, 78 00:05:23,322 --> 00:05:26,155 there was teaching and baseball 79 00:05:26,224 --> 00:05:28,825 and love of music. 80 00:05:28,894 --> 00:05:31,361 We had that, and even though Robby was only three, 81 00:05:31,430 --> 00:05:33,562 he has a sense of warmth, you know. 82 00:05:33,631 --> 00:05:37,433 And we can have that, but you know, you can't, 83 00:05:37,502 --> 00:05:39,936 and that is very, very unfortunate, 84 00:05:40,005 --> 00:05:42,071 and it's really unfortunate 85 00:05:42,140 --> 00:05:45,711 because they have been mythologized so. 86 00:06:08,633 --> 00:06:10,265 They made difficult choices. 87 00:06:10,334 --> 00:06:12,735 And, I may not have agreed with all their choices. 88 00:06:12,804 --> 00:06:16,238 There are all these people out there who want to say 89 00:06:16,307 --> 00:06:20,243 either the Rosenbergs are devils or the Rosenbergs are saints. 90 00:06:20,312 --> 00:06:24,484 And the reality is they're neither devils nor saints. 91 00:06:28,386 --> 00:06:30,386 There's a forgotten guy in my grandparent's case 92 00:06:30,455 --> 00:06:34,223 because it was actually the Rosenberg-Sobell trial. 93 00:06:34,292 --> 00:06:36,592 I've known morty my whole life, 94 00:06:36,661 --> 00:06:38,594 but I've never really talked to him. 95 00:06:38,663 --> 00:06:39,896 Hi. 96 00:06:39,965 --> 00:06:40,965 Morty? 97 00:06:41,033 --> 00:06:42,165 I'm coming down. 98 00:06:42,234 --> 00:06:43,032 Okay. 99 00:06:43,101 --> 00:06:45,702 Hey, no cameras in the lobby. 100 00:06:45,771 --> 00:06:46,970 Do you want to go for... 101 00:06:47,039 --> 00:06:48,204 no cameras in... 102 00:06:48,273 --> 00:06:49,417 take her, take her, take her! 103 00:06:49,441 --> 00:06:50,839 No, don't you dare, please don't! 104 00:06:50,908 --> 00:06:53,777 Henrietta, these are my friends, we'll introduce you later. 105 00:06:53,846 --> 00:06:56,179 Good to see you, Ivy. 106 00:06:56,248 --> 00:06:57,580 You too. 107 00:06:57,649 --> 00:07:01,184 When I was cleaning up Mike Perlin's office, 108 00:07:01,253 --> 00:07:02,663 that's the lawyer, 109 00:07:02,687 --> 00:07:07,857 one of the things I ran into was this box and I opened it up, 110 00:07:07,926 --> 00:07:10,025 and I was surprised at the... 111 00:07:10,094 --> 00:07:14,130 Let's see, what do we have here? 112 00:07:14,199 --> 00:07:16,632 Here's a badge for Julius. 113 00:07:16,701 --> 00:07:17,901 Oh, wow. 114 00:07:17,970 --> 00:07:18,601 At signal corp. 115 00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:20,502 Signal manufacturing corporation. 116 00:07:20,571 --> 00:07:22,216 That was when he was working for the government 117 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:23,707 and then he got canned. 118 00:07:23,776 --> 00:07:24,940 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 119 00:07:25,009 --> 00:07:28,878 A couple of little other things that they had at that time. 120 00:07:28,947 --> 00:07:30,814 So I rescued them. 121 00:07:30,883 --> 00:07:33,883 Wonder if this "e" is for Ethel? 122 00:07:33,952 --> 00:07:36,418 No, excellence, excellence. 123 00:07:36,487 --> 00:07:40,056 I remember we got those, but I forgot what they were. 124 00:07:40,125 --> 00:07:43,192 So, I guess where we should just start 125 00:07:43,261 --> 00:07:44,794 is from the very beginning. 126 00:07:44,863 --> 00:07:46,429 Usually, usually... 127 00:07:46,498 --> 00:07:47,897 A good place to start. 128 00:07:47,966 --> 00:07:49,899 So I mean, for me... 129 00:07:49,968 --> 00:07:51,634 Where is the beginning, though? 130 00:07:51,703 --> 00:07:53,436 Well, that's true, where is the beginning? 131 00:07:53,505 --> 00:07:55,437 How about trying to understand 132 00:07:55,506 --> 00:07:59,608 who my grandparents were as people? 133 00:07:59,677 --> 00:08:02,278 They were very ordinary people. 134 00:08:02,347 --> 00:08:04,580 When I knew them they were... 135 00:08:04,649 --> 00:08:08,517 Not different from any other people you know, 136 00:08:08,586 --> 00:08:12,021 except that they were political, very political. 137 00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:13,656 What were they like together? 138 00:08:13,725 --> 00:08:16,192 I mean, there was always this, "they were so in love..." 139 00:08:16,261 --> 00:08:17,406 Oh, they were very... Oh yeah. 140 00:08:17,430 --> 00:08:18,828 Aww. 141 00:08:18,897 --> 00:08:20,496 But what did you like about them? 142 00:08:20,565 --> 00:08:23,299 They were political, we were comrades. 143 00:08:23,368 --> 00:08:25,869 They were my kind of people. 144 00:08:25,938 --> 00:08:28,104 So what would you do? 145 00:08:28,173 --> 00:08:29,838 Would you have dinner? 146 00:08:29,907 --> 00:08:31,674 We didn't have dinner, we just talked. 147 00:08:31,742 --> 00:08:34,244 We never went out or anything like that. 148 00:08:34,313 --> 00:08:36,713 We just talked, that was it. 149 00:08:36,782 --> 00:08:38,248 What were the hot topics? 150 00:08:38,317 --> 00:08:40,315 Well, let's see, 151 00:08:40,384 --> 00:08:43,620 the Spanish civil war started around then, 152 00:08:43,689 --> 00:08:45,554 and then the Soviet Union. 153 00:08:45,622 --> 00:08:48,190 We talked about what was taking place in the Soviet Union. 154 00:08:48,259 --> 00:08:51,994 Did my grandmother strike you as someone who cared about this... 155 00:08:52,063 --> 00:08:54,330 funny when you say, "my grandmother." 156 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:56,732 I have to do a double take... 157 00:09:00,873 --> 00:09:03,473 How come? 158 00:09:03,541 --> 00:09:06,943 Well, I can't think of her as a grandmother. 159 00:09:07,012 --> 00:09:08,811 I know. 160 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,448 Because she was so young when you last saw her. 161 00:09:11,517 --> 00:09:12,749 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 162 00:09:12,818 --> 00:09:15,083 What was her role? 163 00:09:15,152 --> 00:09:20,056 She was more into children, and how to bring up children. 164 00:09:20,125 --> 00:09:22,925 Morty Sobell. 165 00:09:22,994 --> 00:09:24,261 Morty Sobell. 166 00:09:24,330 --> 00:09:25,528 Who is morty Sobell? 167 00:09:25,597 --> 00:09:28,698 Morton Sobell is the third defendant 168 00:09:28,767 --> 00:09:30,767 in your grandparents' case. 169 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:32,334 The key to morty is 170 00:09:32,403 --> 00:09:35,304 he was offered the chance to plead guilty, 171 00:09:35,373 --> 00:09:37,072 and point the finger at your grandfather. 172 00:09:37,141 --> 00:09:39,420 He refused, and for that he spent 19 years in jail. 173 00:09:39,444 --> 00:09:41,410 It's as simple as that. 174 00:09:41,479 --> 00:09:44,080 Michael has asked me sometimes, 175 00:09:44,149 --> 00:09:46,116 "you know something I don't know?" 176 00:09:46,185 --> 00:09:47,317 Yeah. 177 00:09:48,854 --> 00:09:50,957 Do you? 178 00:09:55,226 --> 00:10:01,096 He thinks that I have secrets which I could impart to them. 179 00:10:01,165 --> 00:10:05,568 Right, that maybe, you know, if you knew Julius, 180 00:10:05,637 --> 00:10:07,180 could Julius have been... 181 00:10:07,204 --> 00:10:10,207 would it be something that he could be would be capable of? 182 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:11,674 Was he capable? 183 00:10:11,743 --> 00:10:13,343 I don't know what it takes, 184 00:10:13,411 --> 00:10:16,212 what capability it takes to be a spy... 185 00:10:16,281 --> 00:10:20,016 So all you can say is, you don't know. 186 00:10:20,085 --> 00:10:24,119 I have no private knowledge, that's all I can say. 187 00:10:24,188 --> 00:10:27,523 You know people ask me, "was he innocent?" 188 00:10:27,592 --> 00:10:30,897 And, "you know as much as I do." 189 00:11:09,467 --> 00:11:11,967 The East Side was no picnic. 190 00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:16,606 I went through school with Ethel. 191 00:11:16,675 --> 00:11:18,674 We didn't have any money, 192 00:11:18,743 --> 00:11:22,878 but Ethel skipped classes because she was so bright. 193 00:11:22,947 --> 00:11:27,683 The best thing that happened there was when Ethel sang. 194 00:11:27,752 --> 00:11:31,888 And they came in from the other rooms, 195 00:11:31,957 --> 00:11:34,123 that everybody was listening. 196 00:11:34,192 --> 00:11:36,392 And when I think of it I begin to cry. 197 00:11:36,461 --> 00:11:42,435 Ethel was very, very special. 198 00:11:44,269 --> 00:11:47,036 I went to a couple of parties on the Lower East Side. 199 00:11:47,105 --> 00:11:48,470 I met them there. 200 00:11:48,539 --> 00:11:50,940 And I was invited to their wedding. 201 00:11:51,009 --> 00:11:52,875 What was that like? 202 00:11:52,943 --> 00:11:59,148 Well, it was as Jewish as can be without the orthodox bullshit. 203 00:11:59,217 --> 00:12:01,518 It was a Jewish wedding. 204 00:12:01,586 --> 00:12:03,386 They we as Jewish as they come. 205 00:12:03,455 --> 00:12:04,653 I mean you... 206 00:12:04,722 --> 00:12:07,994 You could almost smell the pickled herring. 207 00:12:10,795 --> 00:12:14,163 I first met Julius at city college. 208 00:12:14,232 --> 00:12:18,034 I think the year was 1934 or five. 209 00:12:18,103 --> 00:12:20,836 At that time I was an activist on the campus, 210 00:12:20,905 --> 00:12:23,740 and so I ran into Julie at a meeting 211 00:12:23,809 --> 00:12:26,709 that the young communist league had put together. 212 00:12:26,778 --> 00:12:28,144 There was a lot of campus activity. 213 00:12:28,213 --> 00:12:32,715 City college in the '30s makes Berkeley in the '60s look pale. 214 00:12:32,784 --> 00:12:35,818 Starting point of my politics 215 00:12:35,887 --> 00:12:38,554 was seeing a man picking food out of a garbage can. 216 00:12:38,623 --> 00:12:41,535 I was 11 or 12 and my dad said to me, 217 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,107 "you're too young to understand why people are reduced to that." 218 00:12:46,131 --> 00:12:48,898 I said, "papa, I want to know now." 219 00:12:48,967 --> 00:12:52,368 And he said, "son, I can't tell you." 220 00:12:52,437 --> 00:12:56,638 It wasn't until three or four years later that 221 00:12:56,707 --> 00:13:00,609 I ran into the young communists and what they said explained 222 00:13:00,678 --> 00:13:03,680 why that man was eating out of the garbage can. 223 00:13:16,295 --> 00:13:17,295 Hello! 224 00:13:17,329 --> 00:13:18,194 How are you? 225 00:13:18,263 --> 00:13:19,729 Good, how are you? 226 00:13:19,798 --> 00:13:22,899 It is so terrific to see you. 227 00:13:22,968 --> 00:13:24,067 You too. 228 00:13:24,136 --> 00:13:25,434 I just can't believe it. 229 00:13:25,503 --> 00:13:31,140 It's 50 years that just seems to swirl right by. 230 00:13:31,210 --> 00:13:32,708 I know. 231 00:13:32,777 --> 00:13:39,214 The house of detention where Ethel and I were jailed 232 00:13:39,283 --> 00:13:43,186 used to be on 6th Avenue between 9th and 10th streets, 233 00:13:43,255 --> 00:13:47,790 and when the van came to load us up 234 00:13:47,859 --> 00:13:49,726 to take us to court, 235 00:13:49,795 --> 00:13:52,929 Ethel and Julius would be in that van. 236 00:13:52,998 --> 00:13:56,632 And it was pitch black in there, 237 00:13:56,701 --> 00:14:00,336 and one time a prisoner lit a cigarette 238 00:14:00,405 --> 00:14:04,240 and in the flickering light we saw Ethel and Julie 239 00:14:04,309 --> 00:14:07,180 trying to kiss through that gate. 240 00:14:08,546 --> 00:14:11,080 After the trial, she was moved to my floor 241 00:14:11,149 --> 00:14:15,484 and that gave me the opportunity then to become friendly with her 242 00:14:15,553 --> 00:14:18,053 for that brief time that she was there. 243 00:14:18,122 --> 00:14:21,957 In those days, we had this great feeling 244 00:14:22,026 --> 00:14:25,595 of social responsibility, 245 00:14:25,664 --> 00:14:29,932 and if we worked together and we linked arms with other people 246 00:14:30,001 --> 00:14:34,270 who wanted a better way of life, we would get it. 247 00:14:34,339 --> 00:14:37,640 And we were acutely aware 248 00:14:37,709 --> 00:14:40,876 that things couldn't go on the way they were. 249 00:14:40,945 --> 00:14:44,113 I would pass lines of men 250 00:14:44,182 --> 00:14:48,985 waiting on line for a soup kitchen to open, 251 00:14:49,054 --> 00:14:52,554 hours before, threadbare, in the mid winter. 252 00:14:52,623 --> 00:14:56,326 I saw families that were being evicted from their apartments, 253 00:14:56,395 --> 00:14:58,594 because they couldn't pay their rent. 254 00:14:58,663 --> 00:15:04,233 You had to be dead from the neck up not to feel radical, 255 00:15:04,302 --> 00:15:08,338 that some... a change was necessary. 256 00:15:08,407 --> 00:15:13,212 Listen, I'm getting upset. 257 00:15:22,887 --> 00:15:26,489 Communism in reality is not a political party. 258 00:15:26,558 --> 00:15:27,657 It is a way of life. 259 00:15:27,726 --> 00:15:29,759 An evil and malignant way of life. 260 00:15:29,828 --> 00:15:32,629 It reveals a condition akin to disease 261 00:15:32,698 --> 00:15:35,264 that spreads like an epidemic. 262 00:15:35,333 --> 00:15:37,933 And like an epidemic, a quarantine is necessary 263 00:15:38,002 --> 00:15:41,073 to keep it from infecting this nation. 264 00:15:42,273 --> 00:15:44,673 A lot of people characterize the time as romantic 265 00:15:44,742 --> 00:15:47,009 that people were... Did it... 266 00:15:47,078 --> 00:15:50,280 Yes, people were romantic in what could be done. 267 00:15:50,349 --> 00:15:51,747 You dreamed. 268 00:15:51,816 --> 00:15:53,449 You dreamed a lot of... 269 00:15:53,518 --> 00:15:55,484 What would you dream of? 270 00:15:55,553 --> 00:15:58,121 You dreamed of a socialist country where... 271 00:15:58,190 --> 00:15:59,589 what did it look like? 272 00:15:59,658 --> 00:16:01,123 There wasn't hunger 273 00:16:01,192 --> 00:16:03,760 and you didn't have discrimination against blacks. 274 00:16:03,829 --> 00:16:08,965 So what you and Julius and your group of friends 275 00:16:09,034 --> 00:16:12,936 were fighting for was a socialist world. 276 00:16:13,005 --> 00:16:14,403 A socialist world, yeah. 277 00:16:14,472 --> 00:16:16,518 And we really believed that the Soviet Union was such a model. 278 00:16:16,542 --> 00:16:19,808 No question about it. 279 00:16:19,877 --> 00:16:22,878 And we really believed that without the Soviet Union, 280 00:16:22,947 --> 00:16:25,147 the world was going down a horrible path. 281 00:16:25,216 --> 00:16:28,784 Consequently, we would dedicate all our energies and our lives, 282 00:16:28,853 --> 00:16:33,426 if necessary, to see to it that the Soviet Union wasn't smashed. 283 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,960 Communists have been, still are, 284 00:16:38,029 --> 00:16:41,130 and always will be a menace to freedom, 285 00:16:41,199 --> 00:16:44,133 to Democratic ideals, to the worship of god, 286 00:16:44,202 --> 00:16:46,180 and to America's way of life. 287 00:16:46,204 --> 00:16:48,604 Victory will be assured once communists 288 00:16:48,673 --> 00:16:52,078 are identified and exposed. 289 00:16:53,678 --> 00:16:56,513 My image of Julius was as a good guy, 290 00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:59,115 but what I called a "dripnose." 291 00:16:59,184 --> 00:17:00,784 If a policeman raised his club 292 00:17:00,819 --> 00:17:03,085 he would shake more than I would shake. 293 00:17:03,154 --> 00:17:04,987 It's a very superficial thing, 294 00:17:05,056 --> 00:17:06,923 but that is truly the way I felt. 295 00:17:06,992 --> 00:17:11,428 That's why I was so amazed by the way he stood up. 296 00:17:11,497 --> 00:17:14,296 Absolutely flabbergasted by it. 297 00:17:14,365 --> 00:17:17,266 Senator, you have the distinction of having 298 00:17:17,335 --> 00:17:20,436 coined a new word namely, "mccarthyism." 299 00:17:20,505 --> 00:17:23,705 Now, how do you define mccarthyism, sir? 300 00:17:23,774 --> 00:17:28,745 Calling a man a communist who is later proven to be one. 301 00:17:28,814 --> 00:17:32,381 A lot of people may raise the question, 302 00:17:32,450 --> 00:17:34,383 "why all this hullabaloo about being fair, 303 00:17:34,452 --> 00:17:37,153 "particularly when the people you're investigating 304 00:17:37,222 --> 00:17:39,088 are a bunch of traitors?" 305 00:17:39,157 --> 00:17:40,701 In fact, I've heard some people even say, 306 00:17:40,725 --> 00:17:42,859 "after all, they're a bunch of rats. 307 00:17:42,928 --> 00:17:44,861 Why don't we go out and shoot them?" 308 00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:47,129 Well, I agree that the communists are rats, 309 00:17:47,198 --> 00:17:49,698 but on the other hand remember this: 310 00:17:49,767 --> 00:17:55,808 When you go out to shoot rats, you've got to shoot straight. 311 00:18:02,214 --> 00:18:03,746 Wonder if they walked down here, 312 00:18:03,815 --> 00:18:05,392 no, they must have come in the back. 313 00:18:05,416 --> 00:18:07,184 No, there's probably a back entrance. 314 00:18:07,253 --> 00:18:08,253 Yeah. 315 00:18:11,323 --> 00:18:13,690 That's a scary sound. 316 00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:14,759 It is. 317 00:18:14,793 --> 00:18:16,325 It makes me sweat just being here. 318 00:18:16,394 --> 00:18:18,395 Yeah, it's kind of terrifying, right? 319 00:18:18,464 --> 00:18:19,799 Yeah. 320 00:18:27,038 --> 00:18:29,371 So how do you think our legacy helped you 321 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,085 decide to become a lawyer? 322 00:18:31,109 --> 00:18:32,820 I think from the beginning 323 00:18:32,844 --> 00:18:34,544 I never had a sense that justice was easy, 324 00:18:34,613 --> 00:18:36,912 or something that you could count on, 325 00:18:36,981 --> 00:18:40,750 or something that would occur unless people worked at it. 326 00:18:40,819 --> 00:18:42,885 I guess I started off with this sense of 327 00:18:42,954 --> 00:18:45,622 that these huge injustices occur. 328 00:18:45,691 --> 00:18:48,557 Being in here, I can't help thinking 329 00:18:48,626 --> 00:18:50,159 about being their lawyer. 330 00:18:50,228 --> 00:18:51,794 You know, how that would be? 331 00:18:51,863 --> 00:18:54,063 I think part of the reason I wanted to get into law 332 00:18:54,132 --> 00:18:55,543 when I was younger was the sense of, 333 00:18:55,567 --> 00:18:56,465 "oh, I'm gonna be a lawyer, 334 00:18:56,534 --> 00:18:59,201 and I'm gonna prove their innocence," you know, 335 00:18:59,270 --> 00:19:01,316 I'm sure we all thought about that when we were kids. 336 00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:04,574 Say we found, like real proof 337 00:19:04,643 --> 00:19:07,076 that there was convincing evidence 338 00:19:07,145 --> 00:19:08,844 that they might have done something, 339 00:19:08,913 --> 00:19:10,658 do you think it would change how you feel about them? 340 00:19:10,682 --> 00:19:12,447 No, I mean, not at all. 341 00:19:12,516 --> 00:19:14,783 First of all there are so many different levels on, 342 00:19:14,852 --> 00:19:17,219 at which what happened to them was an injustice. 343 00:19:17,288 --> 00:19:19,166 You know, you look at the facts: No matter what, 344 00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:20,968 I do believe that they were framed, 345 00:19:20,992 --> 00:19:23,525 that there was serious prosecutorial misconduct, 346 00:19:23,594 --> 00:19:26,629 and also, I can't really imagine anyone in our family 347 00:19:26,698 --> 00:19:29,231 being a completely hapless victim, right? 348 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:31,034 That's not the way any of us are. 349 00:19:31,103 --> 00:19:32,768 Yeah, yeah. 350 00:19:32,837 --> 00:19:36,105 I don't believe that they did what they were, you know 351 00:19:36,174 --> 00:19:37,384 convicted of by any stretch, 352 00:19:37,408 --> 00:19:40,043 but on the other hand, you know I think you look at our family, 353 00:19:40,112 --> 00:19:41,823 and you see a lot of people 354 00:19:41,847 --> 00:19:42,779 that take control of their lives. 355 00:19:42,848 --> 00:19:46,152 I'd like to think that they were the same way. 356 00:19:55,293 --> 00:19:57,526 It's so weird to picture the fact that 357 00:19:57,595 --> 00:20:00,229 like nobody sitting on these benches 358 00:20:00,298 --> 00:20:02,465 was really here for them, either, you know? 359 00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:05,534 None of the family, you know? 360 00:20:05,603 --> 00:20:08,171 It was probably most of the people in here 361 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,239 just were looking for... 362 00:20:10,308 --> 00:20:11,574 Blood. 363 00:20:11,643 --> 00:20:12,979 Blood, yeah. 364 00:20:17,783 --> 00:20:20,784 Ladies and gentlemen, friends, 365 00:20:20,853 --> 00:20:25,021 I'd like to read you a poem 366 00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:28,327 written by a good American: 367 00:20:31,129 --> 00:20:33,596 "And when the Rosenbergs are dead 368 00:20:33,665 --> 00:20:36,165 "and wrapped in shrouds of cremlin red 369 00:20:36,234 --> 00:20:39,001 "all future traitors will be aware 370 00:20:39,070 --> 00:20:42,304 "that they will fry in the electric chair. 371 00:20:42,373 --> 00:20:46,442 "The Rosenbergs must fry and die. 372 00:20:46,511 --> 00:20:49,345 "If this death they should escape 373 00:20:49,414 --> 00:20:53,449 "our starry banner will cease to fly. 374 00:20:53,518 --> 00:20:58,354 "O' may god's lights spark the death 375 00:20:58,423 --> 00:21:00,693 of this communist pair." 376 00:21:01,693 --> 00:21:03,993 The ring was first uncovered 377 00:21:04,062 --> 00:21:06,362 following the arrest of Klaus fuchs in england. 378 00:21:06,431 --> 00:21:08,865 David Greenglass, Mrs. Rosenberg's brother, 379 00:21:08,934 --> 00:21:10,733 confessed theft of the secrets 380 00:21:10,802 --> 00:21:12,746 while stationed at the los Alamos atomic project. 381 00:21:12,770 --> 00:21:15,270 He later became the government's chief witness 382 00:21:15,339 --> 00:21:19,011 in the prosecution of Sobell and the Rosenbergs. 383 00:21:22,948 --> 00:21:24,314 For half a century now 384 00:21:24,383 --> 00:21:26,215 he's known that his false testimony 385 00:21:26,284 --> 00:21:28,283 cost his sister her life. 386 00:21:28,352 --> 00:21:30,386 How do you think history will remember you? 387 00:21:30,455 --> 00:21:34,857 As the spy that turned his family in. 388 00:21:34,926 --> 00:21:36,526 Do you care? 389 00:21:36,595 --> 00:21:37,994 Not particularly. 390 00:21:38,063 --> 00:21:39,461 I don't care. 391 00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:41,897 As a youngster, 392 00:21:41,966 --> 00:21:44,934 I always reserved all my hatred for Dave Greenglass, 393 00:21:45,003 --> 00:21:47,103 David and Ruth Greenglass. 394 00:21:47,172 --> 00:21:49,004 This is so interesting: 395 00:21:49,073 --> 00:21:52,308 When I was eight years old and living in the shelter, 396 00:21:52,377 --> 00:21:54,244 I had been punished, 397 00:21:54,313 --> 00:21:56,312 and I ended up being alone, 398 00:21:56,381 --> 00:21:59,749 while all kids were playing all day outside 399 00:21:59,818 --> 00:22:01,062 and I couldn't play, 400 00:22:01,086 --> 00:22:03,319 I was just alone inside and I spent the whole time 401 00:22:03,388 --> 00:22:06,722 talking about the kinds of vengeance 402 00:22:06,791 --> 00:22:09,859 I would enact on David and Ruth Greenglass. 403 00:22:09,928 --> 00:22:11,694 What were you gonna do? 404 00:22:11,763 --> 00:22:13,629 I don't even remember at the time, you know. 405 00:22:13,698 --> 00:22:18,868 I do know that one of the things that I have always as a kid... 406 00:22:18,937 --> 00:22:20,047 and I guess even to today... 407 00:22:20,071 --> 00:22:24,207 I have always believed in exposure as a tremendous thing. 408 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:26,342 You know, proving that somebody lied publically 409 00:22:26,411 --> 00:22:28,211 is always very important to me, 410 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,879 as opposed to somebody else 411 00:22:29,948 --> 00:22:31,614 might like to smash them in the face. 412 00:22:31,683 --> 00:22:33,950 You know, so for instance, David Greenglass, 413 00:22:34,019 --> 00:22:35,363 what I wanted to do is find him 414 00:22:35,387 --> 00:22:36,697 when he was out of jail 415 00:22:36,721 --> 00:22:40,556 and stand behind him and yell very loud, "ex-con!" 416 00:22:40,625 --> 00:22:42,991 And of course, I had seen movies 417 00:22:43,060 --> 00:22:46,495 where people who were in danger of being exposed 418 00:22:46,564 --> 00:22:48,764 as ex-cons would be very upset. 419 00:22:48,833 --> 00:22:51,412 So I thought he would say, "oh please, don't tell anybody." 420 00:22:51,436 --> 00:22:53,503 Ex-con! 421 00:22:53,572 --> 00:22:55,004 What did you say, ex-con?! 422 00:22:55,073 --> 00:22:57,740 You know, I was thinking, "wouldn't that be great?" 423 00:22:57,809 --> 00:23:02,178 Revenge, I love revenge, revenge is so sweet. 424 00:23:02,247 --> 00:23:06,816 I remember when I called you from college freshman year, 425 00:23:06,885 --> 00:23:08,929 and I'd just started reading about everything. 426 00:23:08,953 --> 00:23:12,422 The full impact of what David Greenglass did, hit me 427 00:23:12,491 --> 00:23:14,524 and I was crying and I said, 428 00:23:14,593 --> 00:23:16,960 "why don't we go find David Greenglass, 429 00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:19,729 that fucking bastard, let's go get him. 430 00:23:19,798 --> 00:23:21,897 Let's go, at least go knock on his door, 431 00:23:21,966 --> 00:23:23,799 and say, "here we are." 432 00:23:23,868 --> 00:23:25,268 Greenglass? 433 00:23:25,337 --> 00:23:26,803 Pathetic creature. 434 00:23:26,872 --> 00:23:28,537 If I were kind, I would pity him. 435 00:23:28,606 --> 00:23:31,541 Long before this all happened and I met that kid, 436 00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:33,020 he was a skunk. 437 00:23:33,044 --> 00:23:35,812 He was an absolute skunk the minute I looked at him. 438 00:23:35,881 --> 00:23:37,980 Forgetting all the politics, 439 00:23:38,049 --> 00:23:40,883 he was just a selfish, little skunk. 440 00:23:40,952 --> 00:23:43,786 But it's this cruel irony: 441 00:23:43,855 --> 00:23:47,223 I would love to talk to any of Ethel or Julius' siblings 442 00:23:47,292 --> 00:23:50,260 and they're all gone, except he still lives. 443 00:23:50,329 --> 00:23:51,962 Grandma's gone too. 444 00:23:52,031 --> 00:23:53,396 She was a witch. 445 00:23:53,465 --> 00:23:54,465 Tessie. 446 00:23:54,533 --> 00:23:56,633 Absolute witch. 447 00:23:56,702 --> 00:23:59,902 Cold-hearted bitch. 448 00:23:59,971 --> 00:24:04,407 So your first introduction to Greenglass was in the courtroom. 449 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:05,975 Right, right. 450 00:24:06,044 --> 00:24:07,209 And what was that like? 451 00:24:07,278 --> 00:24:11,081 Well, there was this way he was sort of smiling, you know... 452 00:24:11,150 --> 00:24:12,449 what was that? 453 00:24:12,518 --> 00:24:13,249 That was weird, you know. 454 00:24:13,318 --> 00:24:15,651 He always had that, with his face. 455 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,053 A smirk. 456 00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:19,655 It was always that, no matter what. 457 00:24:19,724 --> 00:24:23,326 At times it was so inappropriate, you know? 458 00:24:23,395 --> 00:24:25,494 When he's talking about these serious things. 459 00:24:25,563 --> 00:24:28,364 I felt something was wrong here, with this guy. 460 00:24:28,433 --> 00:24:30,666 Do you remember Ethel, 461 00:24:30,735 --> 00:24:32,903 or talking about what David was doing? 462 00:24:32,972 --> 00:24:33,903 Yes. 463 00:24:33,972 --> 00:24:35,304 She couldn't understand it. 464 00:24:35,373 --> 00:24:38,174 She had always been his big sister, 465 00:24:38,243 --> 00:24:40,543 and she had always thought of him 466 00:24:40,612 --> 00:24:42,211 as this cute little kid. 467 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,681 She could not understand how he could do such a thing. 468 00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:49,185 But she also knew what pressure he was under, 469 00:24:49,254 --> 00:24:52,889 because she had been under the same pressure. 470 00:24:52,958 --> 00:24:56,326 The FBI kept after him, 471 00:24:56,395 --> 00:25:00,830 and they were... 472 00:25:00,899 --> 00:25:04,667 Building a kind of steel trap, 473 00:25:04,736 --> 00:25:06,435 and he never saw it. 474 00:25:06,504 --> 00:25:09,538 What he was concerned about was that they not arrest his wife, 475 00:25:09,607 --> 00:25:13,576 who was then ill, and he had a new baby. 476 00:25:13,645 --> 00:25:17,046 And so he thought the easiest way out of this thing, 477 00:25:17,115 --> 00:25:18,993 "I'll tell them what they want to know." 478 00:25:19,017 --> 00:25:23,018 And that's when the whole thing exploded. 479 00:25:23,087 --> 00:25:25,254 Ethel typed my notes. 480 00:25:25,323 --> 00:25:28,224 "That was Greenglass' story in 1951, 481 00:25:28,293 --> 00:25:31,094 and he stuck to it for half a century. 482 00:25:31,163 --> 00:25:34,364 But now he has a different recollection. 483 00:25:34,433 --> 00:25:35,843 I don't know who typed it, frankly. 484 00:25:35,867 --> 00:25:38,535 To this day I can't even remember 485 00:25:38,604 --> 00:25:39,846 that the typing took place. 486 00:25:39,870 --> 00:25:42,905 And did Cohen encourage you to testify that 487 00:25:42,974 --> 00:25:46,142 you saw Ethel typing up the notes? 488 00:25:46,211 --> 00:25:47,510 Of course he did. 489 00:25:47,579 --> 00:25:49,624 Did you realize at the time, or when you were testifying, 490 00:25:49,648 --> 00:25:51,058 the importance of this... 491 00:25:51,082 --> 00:25:53,016 the evidence you were providing? 492 00:25:53,085 --> 00:25:55,317 I had no idea that it was important at all. 493 00:25:55,386 --> 00:25:56,786 I mean, he could've said, 494 00:25:56,855 --> 00:25:58,399 "no, I'm just gonna tell you the truth." 495 00:25:58,423 --> 00:26:03,993 But he was actually willing to embellish on the truth 496 00:26:04,062 --> 00:26:06,162 in order to help out the government. 497 00:26:06,231 --> 00:26:08,964 And so he gets worse and worse. 498 00:26:09,033 --> 00:26:11,534 You know, he's no longer just a frightened guy. 499 00:26:11,603 --> 00:26:15,237 He's a willing cooperator 500 00:26:15,306 --> 00:26:19,545 with the government's machinations. 501 00:26:23,347 --> 00:26:25,348 You still don't have any urge now 502 00:26:25,417 --> 00:26:28,751 to ever talk to him or... 503 00:26:28,820 --> 00:26:32,822 No, I mean what would be the point? 504 00:26:32,891 --> 00:26:34,991 What would happen, you know? 505 00:26:35,060 --> 00:26:38,060 Yell at him to his face? 506 00:26:38,129 --> 00:26:41,634 You know, big deal, you know. 507 00:26:46,906 --> 00:26:48,837 Yeah... 508 00:26:48,906 --> 00:26:52,041 And what would you like to do, yell at him to his face? 509 00:26:52,110 --> 00:26:57,079 Well, I would like to... 510 00:26:57,148 --> 00:27:05,091 Talk to him and make him confess. 511 00:27:05,791 --> 00:27:07,223 Well, I mean, confess to what? 512 00:27:07,292 --> 00:27:09,826 He's already confessed on<i> 60 minutes,</i> 513 00:27:09,895 --> 00:27:11,139 you saw him confess. 514 00:27:11,163 --> 00:27:12,661 Yeah, but in such a... 515 00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:16,032 I guess I would want him to confess and show remorse. 516 00:27:16,101 --> 00:27:20,206 Well, you can't make him show remorse. 517 00:27:30,248 --> 00:27:32,315 It's so crazy that all this time 518 00:27:32,384 --> 00:27:34,651 he's lived not that far from me. 519 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,658 I mean, this was such a short drive. 520 00:27:42,428 --> 00:27:44,493 Is this his street? 521 00:27:44,562 --> 00:27:46,495 This is, uh, the street before his street. 522 00:27:46,564 --> 00:27:47,997 The street before his street. 523 00:27:48,066 --> 00:27:50,166 We're gonna be there in about 30 seconds. 524 00:27:50,235 --> 00:27:52,438 I'm nervous. 525 00:27:58,310 --> 00:28:00,477 Uh oh, here we go, to your left. 526 00:28:00,546 --> 00:28:01,778 What, what?! 527 00:28:01,847 --> 00:28:03,912 That's his house? 528 00:28:03,981 --> 00:28:07,616 Look at how all the blinds are shut like nobody's home. 529 00:28:07,685 --> 00:28:11,888 They've got one of those security systems there. 530 00:28:11,957 --> 00:28:14,723 My god, I mean, it's just like 531 00:28:14,792 --> 00:28:17,193 the most innocuous place you could imagine, you know. 532 00:28:17,262 --> 00:28:19,796 There's nothing that even says anything 533 00:28:19,865 --> 00:28:21,998 about the person who lives there. 534 00:28:22,067 --> 00:28:24,635 So this is where he ended up. 535 00:28:24,704 --> 00:28:27,002 Wow. 536 00:28:27,071 --> 00:28:29,242 Wonder if his neighbors know. 537 00:28:32,144 --> 00:28:34,610 Going to see his house just part of letting go 538 00:28:34,679 --> 00:28:37,313 of the fact that he just represented this... 539 00:28:37,382 --> 00:28:40,119 Ultimate evil. 540 00:28:43,621 --> 00:28:46,056 I feel kind of nauseous. 541 00:28:46,125 --> 00:28:48,294 Wow. 542 00:28:49,226 --> 00:28:51,428 So, dad, I want to tell you something that I... 543 00:28:51,497 --> 00:28:52,328 that I did. 544 00:28:52,397 --> 00:28:53,463 Alright. 545 00:28:53,532 --> 00:28:57,967 I went to David Greenglass' house. 546 00:28:58,036 --> 00:28:59,736 Holy shit. 547 00:28:59,805 --> 00:29:01,938 I just drove by though. 548 00:29:02,007 --> 00:29:03,039 Oh. 549 00:29:03,108 --> 00:29:04,440 You found it? 550 00:29:04,509 --> 00:29:05,608 I found his house... 551 00:29:05,677 --> 00:29:06,721 How the hell did you find it? 552 00:29:06,745 --> 00:29:10,580 Umm... We have our ways. 553 00:29:10,649 --> 00:29:12,381 Unbelievable. 554 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:14,383 I wouldn't have dreamed that in a million years 555 00:29:14,452 --> 00:29:17,253 that you would "a" have found it, and "b" driven by it. 556 00:29:17,322 --> 00:29:19,422 The last thing I wanted was for him 557 00:29:19,491 --> 00:29:21,357 to walk out that front door. 558 00:29:21,426 --> 00:29:27,464 Well, if you did, you could've filmed him and driven away. 559 00:29:27,533 --> 00:29:28,898 That's true. 560 00:29:28,967 --> 00:29:31,168 Maybe we'll go back. 561 00:29:31,237 --> 00:29:33,136 Who's the "we"? 562 00:29:33,205 --> 00:29:34,437 Not me. 563 00:29:34,506 --> 00:29:36,609 I have no interest. 564 00:29:57,229 --> 00:29:58,594 "1950. 565 00:29:58,663 --> 00:30:02,298 Found in the closet, 8:18 at night." 566 00:30:02,367 --> 00:30:05,301 This must have been the first time the FBI cleaned out, 567 00:30:05,370 --> 00:30:07,804 started to clean out their apartment. 568 00:30:07,873 --> 00:30:10,773 Evidently it was used to confirm the fact 569 00:30:10,842 --> 00:30:14,043 they had connections with the communist party. 570 00:30:14,112 --> 00:30:18,481 So this "save a Spanish republican child" 571 00:30:18,550 --> 00:30:23,089 was proof of evildoings. 572 00:30:25,890 --> 00:30:29,058 Prosecution introduced this facsimile jello box 573 00:30:29,127 --> 00:30:31,193 to represent the recognition signal 574 00:30:31,262 --> 00:30:33,296 supposedly devised by Julius Rosenberg, 575 00:30:33,365 --> 00:30:35,832 for Greenglass and Harry gold. 576 00:30:35,901 --> 00:30:37,733 Roy cohn is credited with selecting 577 00:30:37,802 --> 00:30:39,970 imitation raspberry for the facsimile. 578 00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:42,705 I'm touching it. 579 00:30:42,774 --> 00:30:44,474 You know I never asked my dad 580 00:30:44,543 --> 00:30:46,509 if they ever even had jello. 581 00:30:46,578 --> 00:30:52,715 Oh, look at this, the console table. 582 00:30:52,784 --> 00:30:55,918 The Rosenbergs kept saying, "we bought it at Macy's." 583 00:30:55,987 --> 00:30:59,488 The prosecution was saying it was a gift from the Russians, 584 00:30:59,557 --> 00:31:03,126 and it had some special thing underneath it 585 00:31:03,195 --> 00:31:05,795 that you could take photographs with. 586 00:31:05,864 --> 00:31:08,897 They actually discovered before the execution 587 00:31:08,966 --> 00:31:11,134 that the Rosenbergs were telling the truth, 588 00:31:11,203 --> 00:31:13,101 that they had bought it at Macy's, 589 00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:15,571 but judge Kaufman refused to hear the new evidence. 590 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,441 That's the lens mold. 591 00:31:18,510 --> 00:31:24,817 Look, David Greenglass, June 15th, 1950. 592 00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:31,420 This is the cross section of the a-bomb. 593 00:31:31,489 --> 00:31:36,662 That would help you develop the a-bomb? 594 00:31:47,472 --> 00:31:48,541 Oh my god. 595 00:31:52,644 --> 00:31:54,877 This is a letter that Ethel wrote to my dad. 596 00:31:54,946 --> 00:31:59,915 "My sweet Michael boy, I have just had my dinner 597 00:31:59,984 --> 00:32:02,318 "and feel like having a little visit with you. 598 00:32:02,387 --> 00:32:03,853 "Yesterday I went to court 599 00:32:03,922 --> 00:32:05,889 "and there I saw your dear daddy 600 00:32:05,958 --> 00:32:08,057 "and what do you think we spoke of? 601 00:32:08,126 --> 00:32:09,692 "You and Robby of course, 602 00:32:09,761 --> 00:32:13,533 and of how much we miss you and what we can do..." 603 00:32:16,202 --> 00:32:18,100 Umm... 604 00:32:18,169 --> 00:32:23,606 "And what we can do to keep you both happy and healthy. 605 00:32:23,675 --> 00:32:27,210 "First, I want you to know that daddy looked very nice 606 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:31,114 and said he felt well." 607 00:32:31,183 --> 00:32:34,854 Umm... 608 00:32:38,890 --> 00:32:41,857 "He is the same wonderful daddy that you knew 609 00:32:41,926 --> 00:32:44,960 "who always loved both his boys 610 00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:47,062 "and would ask for nothing more now 611 00:32:47,131 --> 00:32:49,265 "than to be back living and playing 612 00:32:49,334 --> 00:32:51,471 and having fun with them." 613 00:32:53,704 --> 00:32:56,606 "Many, many hugs and kisses to my dear children 614 00:32:56,675 --> 00:33:00,076 "whose mommy and daddy... 615 00:33:00,145 --> 00:33:04,547 "Loves them very much, 616 00:33:04,616 --> 00:33:06,519 your mommy, Ethel." 617 00:33:39,685 --> 00:33:41,618 "We told you the truth." 618 00:33:41,687 --> 00:33:43,420 "We are innocent. 619 00:33:43,489 --> 00:33:46,222 "The truth does not change. 620 00:33:46,291 --> 00:33:53,162 We now again solemnly declare our innocence." 621 00:33:53,231 --> 00:33:55,699 This is Robby and I visiting Sing Sing. 622 00:33:55,768 --> 00:33:57,199 That's Manny Bloch. 623 00:33:57,268 --> 00:34:00,003 First time we visited them was in August '51, 624 00:34:00,072 --> 00:34:04,607 and we visited them 625 00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:07,980 for almost two full years after that. 626 00:34:14,485 --> 00:34:16,419 Do you remember the first visit? 627 00:34:16,488 --> 00:34:19,158 Oh, I remember the first visit like it was yesterday. 628 00:34:21,993 --> 00:34:24,126 We saw them separately, and we hid. 629 00:34:24,195 --> 00:34:26,695 We hid to make believe we weren't there 630 00:34:26,764 --> 00:34:29,031 and Manny was supposed to say, "oh they couldn't come, 631 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:31,100 and we giggled and ran out, 632 00:34:31,169 --> 00:34:33,936 and my mother, we both visited her, 633 00:34:34,005 --> 00:34:37,206 we both gave her a hug saying, "you look smaller." 634 00:34:37,275 --> 00:34:40,243 And of course she immediately reacted, 635 00:34:40,312 --> 00:34:42,582 "well, it's because you've grown so much." 636 00:34:48,253 --> 00:34:49,885 I remember one conversation which was, 637 00:34:49,954 --> 00:34:51,920 "look, are you really innocent?" 638 00:34:51,989 --> 00:34:56,659 That was one conversation that was very brief. 639 00:34:56,728 --> 00:34:59,661 Of course they responded, "but of course we are," you know. 640 00:34:59,730 --> 00:35:02,632 Later somebody told me they were quite upset 641 00:35:02,701 --> 00:35:04,666 that I asked that question, 642 00:35:04,735 --> 00:35:08,074 because, you know, even<i> we</i> would doubt them. 643 00:35:16,614 --> 00:35:18,914 Remember, I'm the one who when I went into the jail 644 00:35:18,983 --> 00:35:21,117 at the age of nine, I said to the guard, 645 00:35:21,186 --> 00:35:22,597 "can I see the electric chair?" 646 00:35:22,621 --> 00:35:23,920 You wanted to... 647 00:35:23,989 --> 00:35:24,989 I wasn't afraid. 648 00:35:25,057 --> 00:35:26,789 I wanted to show I wasn't afraid of it. 649 00:35:26,858 --> 00:35:28,658 Also remember I was young. 650 00:35:28,727 --> 00:35:30,226 I didn't know. 651 00:35:30,295 --> 00:35:32,762 Well, they weren't scared. 652 00:35:32,831 --> 00:35:35,568 Every time we saw them they weren't scared. 653 00:35:42,007 --> 00:35:43,647 And here we are, must have been in may. 654 00:35:43,675 --> 00:35:45,007 Flowers for Mother's Day. 655 00:35:45,076 --> 00:35:48,511 We got out of the parking lot at Sing Sing. 656 00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:49,891 The newspaper reporters got us. 657 00:35:49,915 --> 00:35:51,547 Look at how happy Robby is. 658 00:35:51,616 --> 00:35:53,048 He's going to see mommy. 659 00:35:53,117 --> 00:35:55,084 That's really a great testimony 660 00:35:55,153 --> 00:35:57,386 to how pleasant and wonderful the visits were. 661 00:35:57,455 --> 00:35:59,467 Which they were, I mean, they were really important. 662 00:35:59,491 --> 00:36:03,592 And this is the letter I wrote to eisenhower. 663 00:36:03,661 --> 00:36:06,095 Do you remember writing the letter? 664 00:36:06,164 --> 00:36:07,642 Oh, absolutely, I remember writing the letter. 665 00:36:07,666 --> 00:36:09,065 How did that come about? 666 00:36:09,134 --> 00:36:10,966 Somebody gave me a piece of paper 667 00:36:11,035 --> 00:36:15,842 with a typed script on it and said, "please copy this." 668 00:36:20,412 --> 00:36:23,179 I went down to Washington for a demonstration. 669 00:36:23,248 --> 00:36:25,315 Handed the letter to the white house guard. 670 00:36:25,384 --> 00:36:26,995 On film. 671 00:36:27,019 --> 00:36:31,858 Got a chance to say "no comment." 672 00:36:32,758 --> 00:36:35,324 Do you remember feeling like this letter 673 00:36:35,393 --> 00:36:37,460 could actually change something? 674 00:36:37,529 --> 00:36:38,427 I didn't. 675 00:36:38,496 --> 00:36:43,233 No, I knew that there were a lot of people 676 00:36:43,302 --> 00:36:44,901 trying to get clemency. 677 00:36:44,970 --> 00:36:46,635 And I, you know, 678 00:36:46,704 --> 00:36:51,110 I just was hoping against hope that it would work. 679 00:36:52,978 --> 00:36:54,847 Wow. 680 00:36:58,950 --> 00:37:02,051 So when you knew Ethel, was it already clear 681 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,488 that no one in the family 682 00:37:05,557 --> 00:37:08,124 was going to take care of my father? 683 00:37:08,193 --> 00:37:10,626 No, it was not. 684 00:37:10,695 --> 00:37:15,297 Sometime during that period, her mother took the boys, 685 00:37:15,366 --> 00:37:18,367 but the social worker took the boys away from her mother 686 00:37:18,436 --> 00:37:21,504 because she was screaming at them, 687 00:37:21,573 --> 00:37:23,717 and she was telling them... 688 00:37:23,741 --> 00:37:26,342 you know these were children who... 689 00:37:26,411 --> 00:37:28,811 young and missing their parents, 690 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,481 and there must have been some misbehavior 691 00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:33,783 she couldn't cope with, and she screamed at them, 692 00:37:33,852 --> 00:37:36,585 "you're gonna end up in the electric chair 693 00:37:36,654 --> 00:37:38,333 just like your parents." 694 00:37:38,357 --> 00:37:40,189 So when I knew her, 695 00:37:40,258 --> 00:37:44,093 they were already in a children's shelter. 696 00:37:44,162 --> 00:37:46,261 And that was a pretty chaotic thing. 697 00:37:46,330 --> 00:37:49,065 I don't know if they ever talk about it, but... 698 00:37:49,134 --> 00:37:52,935 My father remembers that as one of the worst times of his life. 699 00:37:53,004 --> 00:37:58,908 Right, it was one of the worst times of his mother's life. 700 00:37:58,977 --> 00:38:01,844 You know, if I really think honestly about what led me 701 00:38:01,913 --> 00:38:05,214 to start looking at the family more closely was first 702 00:38:05,283 --> 00:38:08,283 when I realized how many siblings 703 00:38:08,352 --> 00:38:10,887 there were of Ethel and Julius', and then saying, 704 00:38:10,956 --> 00:38:14,556 well, where were these people 705 00:38:14,625 --> 00:38:19,098 and why didn't anyone take in my dad and Robby? 706 00:38:20,531 --> 00:38:22,065 Hello, my name's Ivy Meeropol. 707 00:38:22,134 --> 00:38:24,868 I'm Michael Meeropol's daughter. 708 00:38:26,939 --> 00:38:29,338 I'm good, how are you? 709 00:38:29,407 --> 00:38:34,844 So, um, I've actually been trying to track down 710 00:38:34,913 --> 00:38:38,314 family members and meet people 711 00:38:38,383 --> 00:38:41,617 that no one in my family's ever, ever spoken to. 712 00:38:41,686 --> 00:38:44,053 What do you think about me trying to talk 713 00:38:44,122 --> 00:38:46,022 to some of these relatives? 714 00:38:46,091 --> 00:38:47,190 I think that's fine. 715 00:38:47,259 --> 00:38:50,594 I don't know if you're gonna make any friends. 716 00:38:50,663 --> 00:38:52,762 Right. 717 00:38:52,831 --> 00:38:55,198 Would you even consider talking on the phone with me 718 00:38:55,267 --> 00:38:57,099 and letting, so that I would have 719 00:38:57,168 --> 00:38:59,035 the stories just from you 720 00:38:59,104 --> 00:39:01,070 and that I wouldn't have to... 721 00:39:01,139 --> 00:39:03,172 Oh, you wouldn't even want your voice involved? 722 00:39:03,241 --> 00:39:06,209 And you don't want to talk about them, 723 00:39:06,278 --> 00:39:08,078 because they're too painful? 724 00:39:08,147 --> 00:39:09,378 Right. 725 00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:10,780 No, I don't... 726 00:39:10,849 --> 00:39:12,248 I have to be honest, 727 00:39:12,317 --> 00:39:13,917 a lot of people don't want to talk to me. 728 00:39:13,952 --> 00:39:17,620 People are, I mean, they're afraid. 729 00:39:17,689 --> 00:39:20,122 I mean, maybe I came into this a little naively 730 00:39:20,191 --> 00:39:22,691 thinking what, 50 years later, 731 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,895 why can't we overcome this great divide in our family 732 00:39:25,964 --> 00:39:29,131 and talk about what happened? 733 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,102 Uncle Oscar, aunt Ethel's husband 734 00:39:33,171 --> 00:39:36,338 was scared out of his tree when his brother-in-law was arrested 735 00:39:36,407 --> 00:39:40,176 and that was why they didn't do anything public 736 00:39:40,245 --> 00:39:42,077 like take Robby and me in 737 00:39:42,146 --> 00:39:44,513 because it would have ruined their business, 738 00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:45,515 their local business. 739 00:39:45,584 --> 00:39:47,850 They probably would have lost all their customers, 740 00:39:47,919 --> 00:39:50,553 and aunt Ethel never forgave herself, 741 00:39:50,622 --> 00:39:53,456 and she thought in fact that Robby and I were angry at her, 742 00:39:53,525 --> 00:39:56,058 and we never were angry at her for doing it at all, 743 00:39:56,127 --> 00:39:58,472 you know, but she thought that. 744 00:39:58,496 --> 00:39:59,828 For what not taking you in? 745 00:39:59,897 --> 00:40:02,009 For not taking us in, but we understood that totally. 746 00:40:02,033 --> 00:40:07,036 Well, I was calling because I have been trying 747 00:40:07,105 --> 00:40:11,774 to track down where some of my grandparents things might be 748 00:40:11,843 --> 00:40:14,476 'cause I know that aunt Ethel 749 00:40:14,545 --> 00:40:17,713 had gotten some of their things after they died. 750 00:40:17,782 --> 00:40:21,250 Uhh, well, Ethel's shoes, 751 00:40:21,319 --> 00:40:23,986 I saw photographs at her apartment, 752 00:40:24,055 --> 00:40:28,461 of her showing that she had Ethel's shoes. 753 00:40:32,164 --> 00:40:36,765 Well, it's not about, 754 00:40:36,834 --> 00:40:39,969 it's not about benefiting myself, 755 00:40:40,038 --> 00:40:42,838 it's about just finding out more information. 756 00:40:42,907 --> 00:40:45,841 Oh yeah, of course, I've called everyone. 757 00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:47,843 I've called everyone on the Greenglass side 758 00:40:47,912 --> 00:40:49,645 and the Rosenberg side. 759 00:40:49,714 --> 00:40:52,515 Everyone in the family seems to be ashamed 760 00:40:52,584 --> 00:40:55,184 of who, you know, who we all are. 761 00:40:55,253 --> 00:41:00,088 Well, I think that's really, when you said, 762 00:41:00,157 --> 00:41:05,394 "what does it tell you that nobody wants to talk about it?" 763 00:41:05,463 --> 00:41:10,133 You know, it tells me how bad 764 00:41:10,202 --> 00:41:12,968 it must have been, really. 765 00:41:13,037 --> 00:41:18,344 It's... I guess just hard to accept, for me. 766 00:41:28,786 --> 00:41:31,988 This is my grandfather, Julius Rosenberg, 767 00:41:32,057 --> 00:41:35,691 who my brother's middle name was named after. 768 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,130 And this is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg together, 769 00:41:41,199 --> 00:41:44,667 and my middle name was named after Ethel. 770 00:41:44,736 --> 00:41:47,303 This is the TV news 771 00:41:47,372 --> 00:41:49,972 and we're interviewing Jenny Meeropol here. 772 00:41:50,041 --> 00:41:52,476 How old are you, Jenny? 773 00:41:52,545 --> 00:41:53,576 Five and a half. 774 00:41:53,645 --> 00:41:56,646 What are your parents' names? 775 00:41:56,715 --> 00:41:58,113 Ellie and Robby. 776 00:41:58,182 --> 00:42:01,217 I'm Ivy Meeropol, and I'm interviewing Greg Meeropol. 777 00:42:01,286 --> 00:42:03,152 How old are you, Greg? 778 00:42:03,221 --> 00:42:06,055 Seven and... eight and a half. 779 00:42:06,124 --> 00:42:08,457 Do you have any sisters or brothers? 780 00:42:08,526 --> 00:42:12,198 Yes, I have a sister, Ivy. 781 00:42:14,165 --> 00:42:16,365 You know, this was a family that I was brought into, 782 00:42:16,434 --> 00:42:19,368 and that I only think of you know, 783 00:42:19,437 --> 00:42:21,404 mom and dad as my mom and dad. 784 00:42:21,473 --> 00:42:22,939 The woman who gave birth to me 785 00:42:23,008 --> 00:42:24,641 just did that, gave birth to me, 786 00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:26,943 and I just feel that this is my family 787 00:42:27,012 --> 00:42:28,744 and I would die for them, 788 00:42:28,813 --> 00:42:31,180 and even though I never met Julius and Ethel, 789 00:42:31,249 --> 00:42:33,249 I still have that, you know, that passion for them, 790 00:42:33,284 --> 00:42:35,955 and you know, and will defend them. 791 00:42:41,827 --> 00:42:43,459 Sunnyvale, California. 792 00:42:43,528 --> 00:42:47,830 This is a long way from the Lower East Side, huh? 793 00:42:47,899 --> 00:42:50,166 That's where his family's from... 794 00:42:50,235 --> 00:42:52,171 our family's from, I should say. 795 00:42:53,671 --> 00:42:55,771 We're going to meet baron Roberts. 796 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,275 He is Julius' brother, David's son, 797 00:42:59,344 --> 00:43:01,877 but they changed their name to Roberts. 798 00:43:01,946 --> 00:43:04,313 This is the first relative of mine 799 00:43:04,382 --> 00:43:06,082 that I've met on the Rosenberg side. 800 00:43:06,151 --> 00:43:08,584 Hi! 801 00:43:08,653 --> 00:43:11,554 How are you doing? 802 00:43:11,623 --> 00:43:12,855 I'm good how are you? 803 00:43:12,924 --> 00:43:13,924 Good. 804 00:43:13,992 --> 00:43:15,302 I know, "don't look at the camera". 805 00:43:15,326 --> 00:43:16,660 Don't mind my friend. 806 00:43:16,729 --> 00:43:18,428 Come in. 807 00:43:18,497 --> 00:43:20,564 This is sue, my wife. 808 00:43:20,633 --> 00:43:23,066 Hi. 809 00:43:23,135 --> 00:43:25,435 I'm Ivy. 810 00:43:25,504 --> 00:43:27,136 I'm Olivia. 811 00:43:27,205 --> 00:43:30,740 Okay, folks, and we're back to the show. 812 00:43:30,809 --> 00:43:32,508 We're back. 813 00:43:32,577 --> 00:43:34,944 So, how does it feel to meet a new cousin? 814 00:43:35,013 --> 00:43:36,445 That's me. 815 00:43:36,514 --> 00:43:39,782 Well, I just don't get that family part. 816 00:43:39,851 --> 00:43:43,886 Right, your grandpa on your dad's side 817 00:43:43,955 --> 00:43:47,023 was the brother of my grandpa. 818 00:43:47,092 --> 00:43:49,158 Interesting. 819 00:43:49,227 --> 00:43:53,429 And so, my dad's dad was named Julius, 820 00:43:53,498 --> 00:43:55,130 and they were brothers. 821 00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:58,301 And you heard the whole story about what happened to Julius. 822 00:43:58,370 --> 00:44:00,270 It was a very sad story. 823 00:44:00,339 --> 00:44:01,571 He "bzzz". 824 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,872 Ohh, yeah. 825 00:44:02,941 --> 00:44:04,540 "Bzzz." 826 00:44:04,609 --> 00:44:07,576 That must be really sad, to grandpa. 827 00:44:07,645 --> 00:44:10,980 It was very sad for your grandpa. 828 00:44:11,049 --> 00:44:14,787 I think he was sad for the rest of his life because of that. 829 00:44:16,288 --> 00:44:18,387 You know, I've been curious about why 830 00:44:18,456 --> 00:44:23,393 your dad changed your name from Rosenberg to Roberts. 831 00:44:23,462 --> 00:44:25,928 Yeah, I'd asked him about that 832 00:44:25,997 --> 00:44:28,964 and while he didn't talk too much in detail 833 00:44:29,033 --> 00:44:31,167 about any of the background, 834 00:44:31,236 --> 00:44:33,335 he did say that after the execution, 835 00:44:33,404 --> 00:44:37,840 he was feeling like it's just not the right thing 836 00:44:37,909 --> 00:44:40,243 to have that name right now, and he was concerned about, 837 00:44:40,312 --> 00:44:42,545 you know, his future, 838 00:44:42,614 --> 00:44:45,548 and so he changed it to Roberts. 839 00:44:45,617 --> 00:44:47,917 Now, how much of that was also the influence of my mother, 840 00:44:47,986 --> 00:44:51,420 because she was the more paranoid about things, 841 00:44:51,489 --> 00:44:54,323 but at that time everybody was paranoid. 842 00:44:54,392 --> 00:44:58,361 What was the story that she would tell about my grandmother 843 00:44:58,430 --> 00:45:03,666 asking she and your dad to take in my dad and Robby? 844 00:45:03,735 --> 00:45:07,036 She would put on a sort of stoic veneer 845 00:45:07,105 --> 00:45:09,772 and talk about how she went up to Sing Sing 846 00:45:09,841 --> 00:45:11,874 at Ethel's request, 847 00:45:11,943 --> 00:45:13,676 and that Ethel had asked her 848 00:45:13,745 --> 00:45:18,948 to adopt your father and your uncle 849 00:45:19,017 --> 00:45:22,284 and she said, "no." That's how she related it, 850 00:45:22,353 --> 00:45:25,821 and as a kid, again, I heard this a million times, 851 00:45:25,890 --> 00:45:27,990 how she'd keep repeating it. 852 00:45:28,059 --> 00:45:33,095 And it was so clear, especially looking back on it, 853 00:45:33,164 --> 00:45:34,810 this was eating her up inside. 854 00:45:34,834 --> 00:45:35,965 Yeah. 855 00:45:36,034 --> 00:45:37,345 But I do feel a sense of, 856 00:45:37,369 --> 00:45:40,036 somewhat shame for my mother's behavior, 857 00:45:40,105 --> 00:45:44,540 not adopting your father and your uncle. 858 00:45:44,609 --> 00:45:46,175 That was the other thing, 859 00:45:46,244 --> 00:45:47,543 when I started looking into this: 860 00:45:47,612 --> 00:45:49,946 It was, nobody went to their funeral. 861 00:45:50,015 --> 00:45:53,250 Except for grandma Sophie. 862 00:45:53,319 --> 00:45:54,483 You're kidding? 863 00:45:54,552 --> 00:45:55,964 My father didn't go to their funeral? 864 00:45:55,988 --> 00:45:56,988 No. 865 00:45:57,055 --> 00:45:58,799 It's funny because I'm sitting here 866 00:45:58,823 --> 00:46:01,258 talking to you about how these people should apologize and... 867 00:46:01,327 --> 00:46:03,727 I'm sorry. 868 00:46:03,796 --> 00:46:04,994 I know. 869 00:46:05,063 --> 00:46:07,330 It's like, I'm the one who should apologize. 870 00:46:07,399 --> 00:46:08,864 Why you shouldn't... 871 00:46:08,933 --> 00:46:10,145 there's no reason you should apologize. 872 00:46:10,169 --> 00:46:12,034 Who's left to apologize? 873 00:46:12,103 --> 00:46:13,573 Well, that's true. 874 00:46:19,011 --> 00:46:20,343 It's true. 875 00:46:20,412 --> 00:46:21,577 I know. 876 00:46:21,646 --> 00:46:22,646 I was gonna apologize. 877 00:46:22,713 --> 00:46:24,725 Some people won't even talk to you, that's ridiculous. 878 00:46:24,749 --> 00:46:26,549 You know, so I'm sorry. 879 00:46:26,618 --> 00:46:29,121 It's unacceptable. 880 00:46:47,906 --> 00:46:50,206 It's that corner house with the air conditioner, 881 00:46:50,275 --> 00:46:51,919 I remember seeing the air conditioner 882 00:46:51,943 --> 00:46:53,721 it's the corner with the air conditioner. 883 00:46:53,745 --> 00:46:54,810 There it is. 884 00:46:54,879 --> 00:46:57,458 Building "g" that's what it is, it's 11-e in building "g". 885 00:46:57,482 --> 00:46:59,348 General electric. 886 00:46:59,417 --> 00:47:01,383 Is that how you remember it? 887 00:47:01,452 --> 00:47:02,852 No, that's what mom said. 888 00:47:02,887 --> 00:47:05,855 Mom would always call it general electric. 889 00:47:05,924 --> 00:47:08,424 And that's how you would remember it? 890 00:47:08,493 --> 00:47:10,626 No, that's how I've remembered it now. 891 00:47:10,695 --> 00:47:13,562 Then, I just, you know, this was the building 892 00:47:13,631 --> 00:47:15,868 you came in through the stairs and you walked in here. 893 00:47:16,902 --> 00:47:18,067 Hello. 894 00:47:18,136 --> 00:47:19,001 Hello, Mr. Lin? 895 00:47:19,070 --> 00:47:22,005 This is the meeropols we're coming up to 11-e. 896 00:47:22,074 --> 00:47:23,138 Okay. 897 00:47:23,207 --> 00:47:24,487 Thank you, could you buzz us in? 898 00:47:26,512 --> 00:47:27,409 Thank you. 899 00:47:27,478 --> 00:47:29,812 And the elevator is the same damn elevator. 900 00:47:29,881 --> 00:47:31,914 Slow down, dad. 901 00:47:31,983 --> 00:47:33,116 No way. 902 00:47:33,185 --> 00:47:35,051 I have no slow in me. 903 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,054 You're real excited, dad? 904 00:47:39,558 --> 00:47:41,891 Yes, luckily this will be edited. 905 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,960 Let's be dignified. 906 00:47:44,029 --> 00:47:45,427 Dignified. 907 00:47:45,496 --> 00:47:49,031 Actually when you think about it 908 00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:51,012 those fucking FBI agents rode this same damn elevator. 909 00:47:51,036 --> 00:47:52,969 That's true. 910 00:47:53,038 --> 00:47:56,439 On June, whatever it was, July 17th. 911 00:47:56,508 --> 00:47:57,807 Maybe more than once. 912 00:47:57,876 --> 00:48:00,713 Yeah, twice. 913 00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:03,012 Hello, I'm Ivy. 914 00:48:03,081 --> 00:48:04,781 Thank you so much. 915 00:48:04,850 --> 00:48:06,649 Thank you, Robert. 916 00:48:06,718 --> 00:48:08,550 Hi, I'm Michael, how do you do? 917 00:48:08,619 --> 00:48:11,624 Thank you so much for letting us do this. 918 00:48:14,459 --> 00:48:16,259 My name is Michael, thank you very much. 919 00:48:19,264 --> 00:48:20,763 I can't pronounce well. 920 00:48:20,832 --> 00:48:24,133 How do you do, this is my brother, Robert. 921 00:48:24,202 --> 00:48:25,634 Do you know the story? 922 00:48:25,703 --> 00:48:29,472 I don't know, your parents... 923 00:48:29,541 --> 00:48:30,606 We were very young... 924 00:48:30,675 --> 00:48:33,209 Our parents lived in this apartment 925 00:48:33,278 --> 00:48:35,211 and we were very young children here. 926 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,415 And they were arrested when we were very young, 927 00:48:39,484 --> 00:48:43,152 and so we then left the apartment. 928 00:48:43,221 --> 00:48:44,453 Do you remember? 929 00:48:44,522 --> 00:48:45,600 I do, because I was seven years old. 930 00:48:45,624 --> 00:48:47,390 This was the living room. 931 00:48:47,459 --> 00:48:49,258 This was the living room and the dining room 932 00:48:49,327 --> 00:48:51,394 and the console table was probably right there, 933 00:48:51,463 --> 00:48:53,107 but I don't remember that. 934 00:48:53,131 --> 00:48:54,831 Wanna go in the kitchen? 935 00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:56,165 Sure. 936 00:48:56,234 --> 00:48:58,534 This is the famous picture right? 937 00:48:58,603 --> 00:49:01,037 Yes, that's right, absolutely, there is a famous picture. 938 00:49:01,106 --> 00:49:02,584 That's probably a new refrigerator. 939 00:49:02,608 --> 00:49:06,042 But the sink is probably the same. 940 00:49:06,111 --> 00:49:08,778 That's amazing. 941 00:49:08,847 --> 00:49:11,247 Yeah, that's the sink. 942 00:49:11,316 --> 00:49:12,815 I bet that's the same sink. 943 00:49:12,884 --> 00:49:14,850 There's a relatively famous picture 944 00:49:14,919 --> 00:49:18,454 where your grandmother made that very substantial gesture 945 00:49:18,523 --> 00:49:21,256 in an effort to fight back against the propaganda. 946 00:49:21,325 --> 00:49:24,927 She had to show herself as a good wife and mother in the kitchen. 947 00:49:24,996 --> 00:49:27,764 Right, and that we are just ordinary Americans 948 00:49:27,833 --> 00:49:29,577 and we don't know anything about this stuff 949 00:49:29,601 --> 00:49:34,070 which was a great show of loyalty with dad in jail. 950 00:49:34,139 --> 00:49:36,205 That was very, very crucial. 951 00:49:36,274 --> 00:49:37,840 Didn't work of course. 952 00:49:37,909 --> 00:49:42,479 She was standing there in a house dress with a dish towel. 953 00:49:42,548 --> 00:49:44,047 Yeah, yeah. 954 00:49:44,116 --> 00:49:45,247 Dish towel. 955 00:49:45,316 --> 00:49:48,817 That's right, right at that spot. 956 00:49:48,886 --> 00:49:51,721 Right absolutely at that spot, really something. 957 00:49:51,790 --> 00:49:54,156 I'm just impressed with how hot it is, 958 00:49:54,225 --> 00:49:56,258 I mean, I just keep thinking about, boy. 959 00:49:56,327 --> 00:49:58,160 What it must have been like in the summer. 960 00:49:58,229 --> 00:50:00,362 There are two rooms. 961 00:50:00,431 --> 00:50:02,632 I thought there was another room. 962 00:50:02,701 --> 00:50:04,333 This is the craziest thing. 963 00:50:04,402 --> 00:50:08,638 I was absolutely positive that there were two rooms here. 964 00:50:08,707 --> 00:50:10,840 This is my room, my bed was right there. 965 00:50:10,909 --> 00:50:12,608 So you had the bedroom. 966 00:50:12,677 --> 00:50:14,157 I had the bedroom, and you must have 967 00:50:14,212 --> 00:50:16,279 maybe had a crib in here somewhere. 968 00:50:16,348 --> 00:50:17,680 Mmm-hmm. 969 00:50:17,749 --> 00:50:19,448 And they slept out in the... 970 00:50:19,517 --> 00:50:22,886 It's unbelievable, kids think of themselves 971 00:50:22,955 --> 00:50:24,420 as the center of the damn universe. 972 00:50:24,489 --> 00:50:28,424 And I didn't... I assumed they had another bedroom, 973 00:50:28,493 --> 00:50:31,060 and all they had was the living room. 974 00:50:31,129 --> 00:50:32,895 Unbelievable. 975 00:50:32,964 --> 00:50:34,830 It was really fun living in here, 976 00:50:34,899 --> 00:50:36,765 the outside stuff, in the park, 977 00:50:36,834 --> 00:50:41,270 walking around in the courtyard and being in this apartment. 978 00:50:41,339 --> 00:50:44,107 All aspects of it were really nice. 979 00:50:44,176 --> 00:50:46,709 So you remember it as a happy time. 980 00:50:46,778 --> 00:50:48,711 Absolutely, it was very happy. 981 00:50:48,780 --> 00:50:51,147 But I did, I mean, certainly... 982 00:50:51,216 --> 00:50:52,982 I got a jolt when I thought about 983 00:50:53,051 --> 00:50:54,883 those FBI agents in that elevator. 984 00:50:54,952 --> 00:50:57,720 Because you... where were you when they came in? 985 00:50:57,789 --> 00:51:00,924 I was right in the front there by the window, sitting down, 986 00:51:00,993 --> 00:51:02,658 may have been even in the kitchen 987 00:51:02,727 --> 00:51:04,239 because that was where the radio was, 988 00:51:04,263 --> 00:51:06,141 listening to the radio. 989 00:51:06,165 --> 00:51:08,263 Listening to "the lone ranger" 990 00:51:08,332 --> 00:51:11,701 and that was the thing with they turned the radio off, 991 00:51:11,770 --> 00:51:13,280 I turned it on... 992 00:51:13,304 --> 00:51:15,405 And I don't know how many of them there were, 993 00:51:15,474 --> 00:51:17,974 maybe there were four of them or three of them 994 00:51:18,043 --> 00:51:19,875 and they filled the place up, 995 00:51:19,944 --> 00:51:22,578 because it seemed like the place was just mobbed with people. 996 00:51:22,647 --> 00:51:24,447 Yeah, in fact, 997 00:51:24,516 --> 00:51:27,250 I did think that the FBI agents 998 00:51:27,319 --> 00:51:28,762 when they walked in at first 999 00:51:28,786 --> 00:51:31,722 were some of daddy's friends until they arrested him. 1000 00:51:31,791 --> 00:51:33,589 God. 1001 00:51:33,658 --> 00:51:35,758 I asked mom "is daddy coming home?" 1002 00:51:35,827 --> 00:51:37,159 She said "not tonight." 1003 00:51:37,228 --> 00:51:38,739 I remember saying to the FBI agent, 1004 00:51:38,763 --> 00:51:41,330 I listen to you on the radio, or something like that. 1005 00:51:41,399 --> 00:51:43,644 Then that was it he was never in this apartment again? 1006 00:51:43,668 --> 00:51:46,635 Never in this apartment again, that's right. 1007 00:51:46,704 --> 00:51:49,016 After July 17th, 1950, he never saw this apartment. 1008 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:50,941 Unbelievable. 1009 00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:53,710 Wow. 1010 00:51:53,779 --> 00:51:57,216 Thank you for doing this, dear. 1011 00:52:18,536 --> 00:52:21,437 This is the story of the atomic spies. 1012 00:52:21,506 --> 00:52:24,239 There probably has never been an espionage operation 1013 00:52:24,308 --> 00:52:27,210 that so profoundly changed the course of world politics. 1014 00:52:27,279 --> 00:52:30,647 Spies: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. 1015 00:52:30,716 --> 00:52:34,216 Code names: Liberal and Ethel. 1016 00:52:34,285 --> 00:52:37,587 Provided Soviets with stolen defensive military documents. 1017 00:52:37,656 --> 00:52:41,090 Suspicion: Julius Rosenberg an anchored spy, 1018 00:52:41,159 --> 00:52:44,797 Ethel Rosenberg as a supportive wife. 1019 00:52:46,598 --> 00:52:49,265 I would argue that the reason we're talking about 1020 00:52:49,334 --> 00:52:51,100 the Rosenberg case today, 50 years later, 1021 00:52:51,169 --> 00:52:52,880 is because of the secret of the atomic bomb. 1022 00:52:52,904 --> 00:52:54,249 Without the secret of the atomic bomb 1023 00:52:54,273 --> 00:52:56,139 we wouldn't be talking about it. 1024 00:52:56,208 --> 00:52:57,840 That's the core of the case, 1025 00:52:57,909 --> 00:52:59,441 that's why there were executions. 1026 00:52:59,510 --> 00:53:01,910 That's why they said they were innocent. 1027 00:53:01,979 --> 00:53:03,557 And that's why they said they were innocent 1028 00:53:03,581 --> 00:53:06,716 because they didn't do the thing they were killed for. 1029 00:53:06,785 --> 00:53:08,483 And that's the key. 1030 00:53:08,552 --> 00:53:11,186 FBI close down, open up the files! 1031 00:53:11,255 --> 00:53:15,090 FBI close down, open up the files! 1032 00:53:15,159 --> 00:53:18,761 FBI close down, open up the files! 1033 00:53:18,830 --> 00:53:20,229 I'm not afraid. 1034 00:53:20,298 --> 00:53:21,675 It's the government that holds back the files. 1035 00:53:21,699 --> 00:53:23,077 We filed the request that said, let it all out. 1036 00:53:23,101 --> 00:53:25,134 You know, what we'd done had demonstrated 1037 00:53:25,203 --> 00:53:26,068 that they were framed. 1038 00:53:26,137 --> 00:53:27,937 And that's not the same as demonstrating 1039 00:53:28,006 --> 00:53:29,405 that someone's innocent. 1040 00:53:29,474 --> 00:53:32,208 All of our research showed what didn't happen. 1041 00:53:32,277 --> 00:53:35,177 It really showed that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg 1042 00:53:35,246 --> 00:53:37,079 didn't steal the secret of the atomic bomb. 1043 00:53:37,148 --> 00:53:40,149 But it didn't show what if anything actually happened. 1044 00:53:40,218 --> 00:53:42,388 What<i> did</i> happen? 1045 00:53:49,994 --> 00:53:53,329 In 1995, a man called up and said 1046 00:53:53,398 --> 00:53:56,365 I just heard from my contacts at the CIA 1047 00:53:56,434 --> 00:54:00,036 that in a few minutes they're going to release 1048 00:54:00,105 --> 00:54:01,771 the venona information 1049 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,039 and I said, "thank you very much," 1050 00:54:04,108 --> 00:54:08,110 and next thing we knew the phone rang, 1051 00:54:08,179 --> 00:54:09,712 and it was some reporters and they said 1052 00:54:09,781 --> 00:54:11,747 this has just been released 1053 00:54:11,816 --> 00:54:13,193 do you want to make a statement? 1054 00:54:13,217 --> 00:54:14,295 What do you think about it? 1055 00:54:14,319 --> 00:54:18,253 And we thought about it and said what do we want to do? 1056 00:54:18,322 --> 00:54:21,023 Venona was deciphered Soviet documents 1057 00:54:21,092 --> 00:54:25,495 that had been picked up in this country, 1058 00:54:25,564 --> 00:54:27,163 and over a period of time 1059 00:54:27,232 --> 00:54:31,103 deciphered by the national security agency. 1060 00:54:31,435 --> 00:54:34,369 At CIA headquarters today, the government revealed 1061 00:54:34,438 --> 00:54:37,173 top secret documents tightly held for 50 years, 1062 00:54:37,242 --> 00:54:40,342 Soviet messages intercepted by the U.S. 1063 00:54:40,411 --> 00:54:43,012 Putting the FBI on the Rosenberg's trail. 1064 00:54:43,081 --> 00:54:45,013 September 1944... 1065 00:54:45,082 --> 00:54:48,884 Julius Rosenberg was code named "antenna" and later "liberal". 1066 00:54:48,953 --> 00:54:50,787 He is described as being so active 1067 00:54:50,856 --> 00:54:53,489 his Soviet handlers worried about his health. 1068 00:54:53,558 --> 00:54:55,992 Ethel Rosenberg is mentioned only once 1069 00:54:56,061 --> 00:54:58,461 as knowing about her husband's work 1070 00:54:58,530 --> 00:55:00,864 and being well-developed politically. 1071 00:55:00,933 --> 00:55:03,500 Venona didn't prove a damn thing. 1072 00:55:03,569 --> 00:55:04,900 This is a joke. 1073 00:55:04,969 --> 00:55:07,837 They tried to attribute to me a name 1074 00:55:07,906 --> 00:55:10,773 and then by the fourth message 1075 00:55:10,842 --> 00:55:13,309 it turns out that "rel" and "sib" 1076 00:55:13,378 --> 00:55:15,344 has an artificial leg. 1077 00:55:15,413 --> 00:55:20,583 So, I always complain here I am a convicted spy 1078 00:55:20,652 --> 00:55:22,851 and they don't have me in there, 1079 00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:24,365 and they have a couple hundred other people 1080 00:55:24,389 --> 00:55:26,500 who've not been convicted in there that they could identify. 1081 00:55:26,524 --> 00:55:29,425 So there isn't any justice in this. 1082 00:55:31,329 --> 00:55:34,264 The government is trying to close this case desperately, 1083 00:55:34,333 --> 00:55:37,633 they want to get it off they're necks. 1084 00:55:37,702 --> 00:55:41,004 I've been making it more difficult. 1085 00:55:41,073 --> 00:55:43,372 That I figure is my job. 1086 00:55:43,441 --> 00:55:47,376 There's always been the element of 1087 00:55:47,445 --> 00:55:49,745 when are we gonna know everything 1088 00:55:49,814 --> 00:55:52,048 from the beginning. 1089 00:55:52,117 --> 00:55:54,317 There's so much that's unknown, 1090 00:55:54,386 --> 00:55:56,518 and what will new information bring? 1091 00:55:56,587 --> 00:56:00,957 So, if you look at it that way a lot of the new information 1092 00:56:01,026 --> 00:56:05,060 over the last 10-15 years or so, 1093 00:56:05,129 --> 00:56:08,898 has been filtered through the government 1094 00:56:08,967 --> 00:56:12,234 so remaining somewhat skeptical is not a bad thing. 1095 00:56:12,303 --> 00:56:16,738 There's a gray area where a reasonable case can be made 1096 00:56:16,807 --> 00:56:20,809 that Julius Rosenberg with Ethel Rosenberg's approval, 1097 00:56:20,878 --> 00:56:27,878 engaged in military industrial espionage during world war ii, 1098 00:56:27,952 --> 00:56:32,888 but a reasonable case can also be made that 1099 00:56:32,957 --> 00:56:35,291 the facts that point to this 1100 00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,927 are government created disinformation 1101 00:56:37,996 --> 00:56:40,608 to justify my parents' execution. 1102 00:56:40,632 --> 00:56:44,868 Figuring those two things out 1103 00:56:44,937 --> 00:56:47,369 is very difficult. 1104 00:56:47,438 --> 00:56:51,207 Until venona documents themselves came out in '95, 1105 00:56:51,276 --> 00:56:54,010 I never thought there was anything to them 1106 00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:55,978 that would, you know, harm us. 1107 00:56:56,047 --> 00:56:58,247 I thought it would, if anything, help us. 1108 00:56:58,316 --> 00:57:01,450 But then when they came out in 1995 1109 00:57:01,519 --> 00:57:03,853 it was very clear that if your grandfather 1110 00:57:03,922 --> 00:57:08,291 was "liberal" then he did stuff. 1111 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:12,962 Well, I'm curious how you guys didn't just write the book 1112 00:57:13,031 --> 00:57:17,500 you also were really the champions of Rosenberg innocence 1113 00:57:17,569 --> 00:57:19,146 for such a long time. 1114 00:57:19,170 --> 00:57:22,872 How did it feel when you started to question that... 1115 00:57:22,941 --> 00:57:24,974 I felt pretty bad. 1116 00:57:25,043 --> 00:57:26,909 Pretty damn bad. 1117 00:57:26,978 --> 00:57:31,113 I did go through a period of sort of feeling angry with them. 1118 00:57:31,182 --> 00:57:34,683 It seems stupid, sort of feeling... 1119 00:57:34,752 --> 00:57:36,319 "How could you have done this to me?" 1120 00:57:36,388 --> 00:57:37,520 You know... 1121 00:57:37,589 --> 00:57:41,624 And you were always brought up to believe 1122 00:57:41,693 --> 00:57:43,593 they were completely innocent. 1123 00:57:43,662 --> 00:57:46,563 Have you changed your mind? 1124 00:57:46,632 --> 00:57:49,064 I don't know, it depends on 1125 00:57:49,133 --> 00:57:52,268 what week you're asking me sometimes. 1126 00:57:52,337 --> 00:57:53,803 It really is true. 1127 00:57:53,872 --> 00:57:55,304 Sometimes I think 1128 00:57:55,373 --> 00:57:57,473 they must have been doing something, 1129 00:57:57,542 --> 00:58:00,243 then other times I think and I read their letters 1130 00:58:00,312 --> 00:58:04,781 and I think how could they say to my father... 1131 00:58:04,850 --> 00:58:09,055 Yeah, his question also. 1132 00:58:17,062 --> 00:58:20,133 A little privacy. 1133 00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:22,632 Here they are. 1134 00:58:22,701 --> 00:58:24,567 They don't give us much room in here. 1135 00:58:24,636 --> 00:58:25,835 Look at that. 1136 00:58:25,904 --> 00:58:28,204 Look at that. 1137 00:58:28,273 --> 00:58:29,771 Oh my god, dad. 1138 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,476 I can't believe you gotta take care of these. 1139 00:58:33,545 --> 00:58:35,445 Really rough with them. 1140 00:58:35,514 --> 00:58:39,915 Comes from having lived with it for so many years. 1141 00:58:39,984 --> 00:58:42,986 Here's an example, look at this one. 1142 00:58:43,055 --> 00:58:46,022 This is from me. 1143 00:58:46,091 --> 00:58:47,757 Ohh wow, dad. 1144 00:58:47,826 --> 00:58:51,927 Merry Christmas to father, and merry Christmas to mother. 1145 00:58:51,996 --> 00:58:56,132 The big days are here, see the pretty Christmas tree. 1146 00:58:56,201 --> 00:58:58,802 Happy new year, your son, from Michael, 1147 00:58:58,871 --> 00:59:00,537 then I erased "from." 1148 00:59:00,606 --> 00:59:04,807 There's 1950, here's '51, 1149 00:59:04,876 --> 00:59:09,312 here's '52, and here's '52... 1150 00:59:09,381 --> 00:59:13,182 And here's '53, the first half of '53. 1151 00:59:13,251 --> 00:59:16,956 And here's the end of '53. 1152 00:59:24,528 --> 00:59:26,995 "Your daddy was with me in the last momentous hours 1153 00:59:27,064 --> 00:59:29,732 "sends his heart and all the love that is in it 1154 00:59:29,801 --> 00:59:31,345 "for his dearest boys. 1155 00:59:31,369 --> 00:59:33,068 "Always remember that we were innocent 1156 00:59:33,137 --> 00:59:34,870 "and could not wrong our conscience. 1157 00:59:34,939 --> 00:59:38,407 "We press you close and kiss you with all our strength, 1158 00:59:38,476 --> 00:59:44,217 lovingly, daddy Julie and mommy Ethel." 1159 00:59:54,492 --> 00:59:56,325 What do you think about this new evidence 1160 00:59:56,394 --> 00:59:58,928 that shows that maybe Julius was passing secrets? 1161 00:59:58,997 --> 01:00:02,264 It's very, it's difficult, 1162 01:00:02,333 --> 01:00:03,744 'cause I grew up my whole life 1163 01:00:03,768 --> 01:00:06,335 thinking that Ethel and Julius were totally innocent 1164 01:00:06,404 --> 01:00:09,072 the whole time and now that new evidence has come out 1165 01:00:09,141 --> 01:00:11,341 and perhaps that Julius was involved, 1166 01:00:11,410 --> 01:00:13,676 it's difficult, at the same time 1167 01:00:13,745 --> 01:00:17,413 I always wonder to myself if he was innocent. 1168 01:00:17,482 --> 01:00:19,882 I mean, if he was guilty and he did do something, 1169 01:00:19,951 --> 01:00:23,986 why didn't he say, "look it was me 1170 01:00:24,055 --> 01:00:26,956 and not my wife, spare her life." 1171 01:00:27,025 --> 01:00:29,892 And that's what's bothering me 1172 01:00:29,961 --> 01:00:32,040 and I know that's gotta be what's bothering dad right now. 1173 01:00:32,064 --> 01:00:33,529 I talked to him about it too... 1174 01:00:33,598 --> 01:00:38,367 So I mean, if it is true... 1175 01:00:38,436 --> 01:00:41,204 Obviously, they are innocent of what they are charged with... 1176 01:00:41,273 --> 01:00:43,105 Right, right and you know, 1177 01:00:43,174 --> 01:00:46,008 you could say that that's what was going on, 1178 01:00:46,077 --> 01:00:50,012 and they trusted that history would absolve them. 1179 01:00:50,081 --> 01:00:51,581 One way or the other. 1180 01:00:51,650 --> 01:00:53,850 I mean, suppose venona's true. 1181 01:00:53,919 --> 01:00:55,450 Think of your grandmother. 1182 01:00:55,519 --> 01:00:59,155 She would have had to repudiate her marriage, basically. 1183 01:00:59,224 --> 01:01:01,890 Testify against her own husband. 1184 01:01:01,959 --> 01:01:05,194 I mean, she would have then had to live her entire life 1185 01:01:05,263 --> 01:01:07,429 bringing up Robby and me 1186 01:01:07,498 --> 01:01:11,000 having testified against our own father? 1187 01:01:11,069 --> 01:01:14,037 She would know that some day as we got to be adults, 1188 01:01:14,106 --> 01:01:17,376 we would hate her for it. 1189 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:29,819 They knew. 1190 01:01:29,888 --> 01:01:31,454 When I say they, 1191 01:01:31,523 --> 01:01:33,689 I mean, the handful of people who knew about venona, 1192 01:01:33,758 --> 01:01:36,325 including like j. Edgar hoover, 1193 01:01:36,394 --> 01:01:41,130 they knew that Ethel had no code name as a spy. 1194 01:01:41,199 --> 01:01:44,833 Which really indicates that she was not an agent at all, 1195 01:01:44,902 --> 01:01:47,303 because everybody had code names. 1196 01:01:47,372 --> 01:01:49,939 Ruth was immediately given a code name. 1197 01:01:50,008 --> 01:01:51,641 Ruth Greenglass, David Greenglass, 1198 01:01:51,710 --> 01:01:54,511 but Ethel didn't have one. 1199 01:01:54,580 --> 01:01:56,412 Now, knowing that, 1200 01:01:56,481 --> 01:01:59,181 they went ahead and they arrested Ethel, 1201 01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:03,085 because they thought that her arrest would persuade Julius. 1202 01:02:03,154 --> 01:02:07,223 And then they played a game of chicken. 1203 01:02:07,292 --> 01:02:09,558 They put a gun to her head and they say 1204 01:02:09,627 --> 01:02:12,365 talk or we'll kill her. 1205 01:02:14,766 --> 01:02:17,800 If venona's true then the United States government 1206 01:02:17,869 --> 01:02:21,771 stands completely condemned before the bar of history 1207 01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,473 of doing exactly what they talk about 1208 01:02:24,542 --> 01:02:26,475 when they talk about terrorists: 1209 01:02:26,544 --> 01:02:29,912 Taking a hostage and then murdering the hostage 1210 01:02:29,981 --> 01:02:34,020 when the other side doesn't come across with the goodies. 1211 01:02:38,823 --> 01:02:42,258 Miriam and I are both convinced that Ethel was murdered. 1212 01:02:42,327 --> 01:02:46,365 You can't put it any other way. 1213 01:02:49,334 --> 01:02:52,134 So when you try to ask questions about: 1214 01:02:52,203 --> 01:02:54,837 Why didn't they do this? Why didn't they confess? 1215 01:02:54,906 --> 01:02:58,206 Which are wonderful mysteries that everybody asks, 1216 01:02:58,275 --> 01:03:00,977 you have to think what was in Ethel's mind knowing 1217 01:03:01,046 --> 01:03:06,118 that so much of what was being said at the trial was fake. 1218 01:03:11,456 --> 01:03:14,256 I've tried to read between the lines of their letters 1219 01:03:14,325 --> 01:03:16,103 to understand what they really meant. 1220 01:03:16,127 --> 01:03:20,032 I mean, what did they die for? 1221 01:03:24,769 --> 01:03:26,969 I grew up feeling a certain way 1222 01:03:27,038 --> 01:03:29,405 and now what am I gonna tell my children 1223 01:03:29,474 --> 01:03:33,109 about who their great grand parents were? 1224 01:03:33,178 --> 01:03:35,478 I mean what do they... 1225 01:03:35,547 --> 01:03:36,813 what's the story? 1226 01:03:36,882 --> 01:03:38,362 What's the story? What to tell them? 1227 01:03:38,417 --> 01:03:42,585 It's really a dilemma. 1228 01:03:42,654 --> 01:03:44,554 It's really a dilemma. 1229 01:03:44,623 --> 01:03:49,959 All you can do is to outline to them what happened 1230 01:03:50,028 --> 01:03:52,995 and tell them what your feeling is. 1231 01:03:53,064 --> 01:03:55,798 Let them draw their own conclusions, 1232 01:03:55,867 --> 01:03:57,934 come what may, you know. 1233 01:03:58,003 --> 01:04:00,001 I don't think my father, 1234 01:04:00,070 --> 01:04:04,808 it's because he was so wrapped up in their innocence himself, 1235 01:04:04,877 --> 01:04:06,843 when I was a kid... 1236 01:04:06,912 --> 01:04:09,512 That affects him all the stuff coming out. 1237 01:04:09,581 --> 01:04:12,715 He wants to know the truth. 1238 01:04:12,784 --> 01:04:15,118 The truth will make you free... 1239 01:04:15,187 --> 01:04:16,719 Maybe. 1240 01:04:16,788 --> 01:04:18,888 He does want to know the truth. 1241 01:04:18,957 --> 01:04:20,723 Yeah, I know, I know. 1242 01:04:20,792 --> 01:04:22,728 I do too. 1243 01:04:27,232 --> 01:04:29,865 The crime for which Julius was convicted, 1244 01:04:29,934 --> 01:04:31,614 he could not have committed. 1245 01:04:31,669 --> 01:04:35,237 He was guilty of something else under the law, 1246 01:04:35,306 --> 01:04:38,941 but not that kind of a thing, and not that kind of a fate. 1247 01:04:39,010 --> 01:04:41,544 So what was he guilty of? 1248 01:04:41,613 --> 01:04:44,813 He was a member of a group, he was, no question about it, 1249 01:04:44,882 --> 01:04:48,918 of young bright men who were into science 1250 01:04:48,987 --> 01:04:50,986 who were of our persuasion, 1251 01:04:51,055 --> 01:04:53,355 who did everything they could to collect information 1252 01:04:53,424 --> 01:04:55,236 and get it to the Soviet Union. 1253 01:04:55,260 --> 01:04:56,726 I remember one of the projects. 1254 01:04:56,795 --> 01:04:58,427 What was it? 1255 01:04:58,496 --> 01:04:59,929 It had to do with... 1256 01:04:59,998 --> 01:05:04,433 An airplane propeller, as it spins, 1257 01:05:04,502 --> 01:05:07,470 it had to do with being able to control from the cockpit, 1258 01:05:07,539 --> 01:05:09,250 the pitch of blades. 1259 01:05:09,274 --> 01:05:11,106 And I know for a fact 1260 01:05:11,175 --> 01:05:14,010 that Julius was trying to get that to them, 1261 01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:15,911 because he talked to me about it. 1262 01:05:15,980 --> 01:05:19,748 And I didn't discourage him with the idea. 1263 01:05:19,817 --> 01:05:22,719 I discouraged him when he discussed 1264 01:05:22,788 --> 01:05:24,487 how he was going about it. 1265 01:05:24,556 --> 01:05:25,588 But the idea, 1266 01:05:25,657 --> 01:05:27,457 I would have gladly taken that package myself, 1267 01:05:27,493 --> 01:05:29,392 that information, oh yeah. 1268 01:05:29,461 --> 01:05:31,761 And that's hard for people to understand today. 1269 01:05:31,830 --> 01:05:34,397 So it doesn't surprise you at all 1270 01:05:34,466 --> 01:05:36,132 and you think Julius was... 1271 01:05:36,201 --> 01:05:39,802 Not only not surprise me I would've done it! 1272 01:05:39,871 --> 01:05:41,511 That's what I'm trying to tell you. 1273 01:05:51,049 --> 01:05:51,981 Harry! 1274 01:05:52,050 --> 01:05:54,950 Harry, do you know who I am? 1275 01:05:55,019 --> 01:05:58,087 You're the granddaughter of the Rosenbergs. 1276 01:05:58,156 --> 01:06:00,189 That's right. 1277 01:06:00,258 --> 01:06:02,425 I'm Michael's daughter. 1278 01:06:02,494 --> 01:06:05,862 You're Michael's daughter not Robert's daughter. 1279 01:06:05,931 --> 01:06:07,229 Right, right. 1280 01:06:07,298 --> 01:06:10,166 By the way, prove it. 1281 01:06:10,235 --> 01:06:11,834 Where's your driver's license? 1282 01:06:11,903 --> 01:06:14,073 You want to see it? 1283 01:06:15,407 --> 01:06:16,539 Here it is. 1284 01:06:16,608 --> 01:06:20,043 Ivy Meeropol. 1285 01:06:20,112 --> 01:06:23,079 Yeah, Rosenberg. 1286 01:06:23,148 --> 01:06:26,349 Are you satisfied that I'm who I say I am? 1287 01:06:26,418 --> 01:06:28,418 Now, yeah. 1288 01:06:33,125 --> 01:06:34,724 Do people here know 1289 01:06:34,793 --> 01:06:36,505 that you were friends with my grandparents? 1290 01:06:36,529 --> 01:06:37,260 No. 1291 01:06:37,329 --> 01:06:38,798 They don't. 1292 01:06:40,699 --> 01:06:43,299 Oh, they're not? 1293 01:06:43,368 --> 01:06:44,637 Unfortunately. 1294 01:07:20,805 --> 01:07:25,275 So, I've heard that you feel that they... 1295 01:07:25,344 --> 01:07:30,116 the position that they took saved you. 1296 01:07:37,823 --> 01:07:38,823 Manny. 1297 01:08:12,824 --> 01:08:15,661 Anything else you wanna know? 1298 01:08:17,362 --> 01:08:21,033 Your grandparents were willing to die. 1299 01:08:23,001 --> 01:08:27,140 They could've saved their lives. 1300 01:08:50,596 --> 01:08:55,401 That's a lot to, you know... 1301 01:09:03,508 --> 01:09:06,342 But I think it's you know, it's hard, 1302 01:09:06,411 --> 01:09:11,651 that they left two children. 1303 01:09:13,818 --> 01:09:16,519 Yeah, yeah. 1304 01:09:16,588 --> 01:09:17,723 That's right. 1305 01:09:40,612 --> 01:09:43,479 The real thing here became one of... 1306 01:09:43,548 --> 01:09:46,849 "What do you mean the death sentence 1307 01:09:46,918 --> 01:09:48,518 "are you out of your goddamn minds? 1308 01:09:48,587 --> 01:09:53,088 For what, for what?" 1309 01:09:53,157 --> 01:09:55,158 And suddenly we knew that if we didn't do anything, 1310 01:09:55,227 --> 01:09:56,470 nobody would. 1311 01:09:56,494 --> 01:09:58,027 And really that's how it began. 1312 01:09:58,096 --> 01:10:00,663 We set up with a number of other people 1313 01:10:00,732 --> 01:10:03,199 the national committee to secure justice 1314 01:10:03,268 --> 01:10:04,834 in the Rosenberg case, 1315 01:10:04,903 --> 01:10:06,981 and then David started covering the country. 1316 01:10:07,005 --> 01:10:09,505 He went from city to city to city. 1317 01:10:09,574 --> 01:10:12,942 The FBI said he put in 10,000 miles 1318 01:10:13,011 --> 01:10:14,910 because they followed him all the way. 1319 01:10:14,979 --> 01:10:17,914 And he'd start committees with two or three people 1320 01:10:17,983 --> 01:10:20,883 and we ended up with committees 1321 01:10:20,952 --> 01:10:24,824 in every major city in the United States. 1322 01:10:49,014 --> 01:10:52,426 "Dear Mr. President, what single action 1323 01:10:52,450 --> 01:10:55,984 "could more effectively demonstrate this nation's 1324 01:10:56,053 --> 01:10:59,388 "fealty to religious and Democratic ideals 1325 01:10:59,457 --> 01:11:03,860 "than the granting of clemency to my husband and myself. 1326 01:11:03,929 --> 01:11:07,363 "Such an act would also be a fitting reply 1327 01:11:07,432 --> 01:11:09,599 "to a small boy's desperate appeal. 1328 01:11:09,668 --> 01:11:13,069 "A hope for the release of his own dear parents. 1329 01:11:13,138 --> 01:11:16,506 "Take counsel with the mother of your only son. 1330 01:11:16,575 --> 01:11:21,110 "Her heart, which understands my grief so well 1331 01:11:21,179 --> 01:11:24,481 "and my longing to see my sons grown to manhood 1332 01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:26,327 "like her own. 1333 01:11:26,351 --> 01:11:28,284 "With loving husband at my side. 1334 01:11:28,353 --> 01:11:31,420 "Respectfully yours, Mrs. Ethel Rosenberg, 1335 01:11:31,489 --> 01:11:35,625 "prison number 110-501, 1336 01:11:35,694 --> 01:11:39,832 women's wing, condemned cell." 1337 01:11:41,399 --> 01:11:43,767 Until the last day they really thought 1338 01:11:43,836 --> 01:11:45,934 that they were gonna make it. 1339 01:11:46,003 --> 01:11:47,970 My aunt Ethel, she said my father would say 1340 01:11:48,039 --> 01:11:52,675 to her in jail, "sis, I think we'll just make it." 1341 01:11:52,744 --> 01:11:56,512 And what he meant was that their lives 1342 01:11:56,581 --> 01:12:00,149 would be spared sort of at the last minute. 1343 01:12:00,218 --> 01:12:03,085 And you know they were right. 1344 01:12:03,154 --> 01:12:05,387 They came very close. 1345 01:12:05,456 --> 01:12:09,425 It took the most extraordinary machinations in the supreme court, 1346 01:12:09,494 --> 01:12:11,372 I mean, the stuff that went on in the supreme court 1347 01:12:11,396 --> 01:12:14,563 that last week was just outrageous. 1348 01:12:14,632 --> 01:12:17,266 I mean, actually allowing a fix 1349 01:12:17,335 --> 01:12:19,013 that the chief justice of the supreme court... 1350 01:12:19,037 --> 01:12:20,581 even before Douglas grants the stay, 1351 01:12:20,605 --> 01:12:23,505 he's the one who says, "I will call the court back 1352 01:12:23,574 --> 01:12:26,676 into special session to overturn the stay if he grants it." 1353 01:12:26,745 --> 01:12:29,178 I mean, it's just an unbelievable line, 1354 01:12:29,247 --> 01:12:32,514 because that means he's not even gonna wait to see the reasons, 1355 01:12:32,583 --> 01:12:35,418 to see whether the reasoning is good. 1356 01:12:35,487 --> 01:12:39,358 He's just gonna overturn it, period! 1357 01:12:45,964 --> 01:12:49,631 The following is part of a statement 1358 01:12:49,700 --> 01:12:51,968 just issued by the president of the United States. 1359 01:12:52,037 --> 01:12:55,204 By immeasurably increasing the chances of atomic war, 1360 01:12:55,273 --> 01:12:58,507 the Rosenbergs may have condemned to death 1361 01:12:58,576 --> 01:13:01,410 tens of millions of innocent people all over the world. 1362 01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:05,551 I will not intervene in this matter. 1363 01:13:11,122 --> 01:13:13,956 I mean, as someone who refused to do 1364 01:13:14,025 --> 01:13:18,227 what they wanted, also, I mean, can you... 1365 01:13:18,296 --> 01:13:20,830 It isn't that they refused, they couldn't. 1366 01:13:20,899 --> 01:13:22,632 They just couldn't. 1367 01:13:22,701 --> 01:13:24,834 Is that how you felt, too? 1368 01:13:24,903 --> 01:13:29,906 Yeah, it was not possible, just not possible, 1369 01:13:29,975 --> 01:13:35,548 you're wasting your breath I can't think that way. 1370 01:13:37,282 --> 01:13:39,215 Because that continues to plague them, 1371 01:13:39,284 --> 01:13:40,983 even 50 years after their death... 1372 01:13:41,052 --> 01:13:42,584 Right. 1373 01:13:42,653 --> 01:13:44,573 ...and our family, it's a constant question. 1374 01:13:44,622 --> 01:13:46,490 Why didn't they save themselves? 1375 01:13:46,559 --> 01:13:48,056 They couldn't. 1376 01:13:48,125 --> 01:13:50,125 You know, why did they not care about my father? 1377 01:13:50,194 --> 01:13:52,295 Why did they not care about my uncle? 1378 01:13:52,364 --> 01:13:54,630 They couldn't, they couldn't do anything. 1379 01:13:54,699 --> 01:13:57,867 They would have had to be something they were not, 1380 01:13:57,936 --> 01:14:01,003 and that's not possible. 1381 01:14:01,072 --> 01:14:05,141 And to look for only political explanations 1382 01:14:05,210 --> 01:14:07,277 is bullshit. 1383 01:14:07,346 --> 01:14:09,312 Purely bullshit. 1384 01:14:09,381 --> 01:14:10,946 If you wanna ask me why 1385 01:14:11,015 --> 01:14:15,084 Ethel and Julius stood up like they did? 1386 01:14:15,153 --> 01:14:17,753 'Cause they knew that if they didn't, 1387 01:14:17,822 --> 01:14:19,855 they could not even face each other. 1388 01:14:19,924 --> 01:14:23,292 They would have no respect for each other. 1389 01:14:23,361 --> 01:14:27,997 The resistance was an enormous bonding thing, 1390 01:14:28,066 --> 01:14:31,834 in some ways more than anything else. 1391 01:14:31,903 --> 01:14:34,103 It's far more important than lust or sex, 1392 01:14:34,172 --> 01:14:37,773 they had become not only each other's best friends, 1393 01:14:37,842 --> 01:14:41,811 but loyal comrades in the deepest sense of the word. 1394 01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,413 And they couldn't betray that. 1395 01:14:44,482 --> 01:14:46,849 Either one of them would have been crushed 1396 01:14:46,918 --> 01:14:48,317 by the other's yielding. 1397 01:14:48,386 --> 01:14:52,358 They loved each other, but in a very deep way. 1398 01:14:56,727 --> 01:14:59,429 Julius and Ethel Rosenberg will die in the electric chair 1399 01:14:59,498 --> 01:15:01,063 at Sing Sing prison tonight. 1400 01:15:01,132 --> 01:15:03,365 Warden dennoe said earlier 1401 01:15:03,434 --> 01:15:06,502 that the executions would begin at eight P.M. daylight time. 1402 01:15:06,571 --> 01:15:09,171 The execution time was set after the supreme court 1403 01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:11,106 and the president refused to intervene. 1404 01:15:11,175 --> 01:15:13,709 We are told that the president and Attorney General brownell 1405 01:15:13,778 --> 01:15:16,913 are standing by in the event the Rosenbergs 1406 01:15:16,982 --> 01:15:19,385 want to make a clean breast of it. 1407 01:15:31,129 --> 01:15:33,340 Every other visit we just assumed there was a next time. 1408 01:15:33,364 --> 01:15:37,800 This one, there was no necessarily a next time, 1409 01:15:37,869 --> 01:15:40,502 so I started wailing, 1410 01:15:40,571 --> 01:15:43,172 "one more day to live, one more day to live." 1411 01:15:43,241 --> 01:15:46,909 What I was saying to them is, "how can you be so normal 1412 01:15:46,978 --> 01:15:50,680 in saying goodbye when you only have one more day to live?" 1413 01:15:50,749 --> 01:15:53,583 And they hugged me and said everything 1414 01:15:53,652 --> 01:15:55,555 would be alright and out I went. 1415 01:15:59,724 --> 01:16:02,325 So you're talking about discovering these letters. 1416 01:16:02,394 --> 01:16:06,395 Yeah, well, they were little scraps of paper 1417 01:16:06,464 --> 01:16:11,568 on which Ethel had scrawled little messages, minutes, 1418 01:16:11,637 --> 01:16:13,602 before her death, 1419 01:16:13,671 --> 01:16:16,238 and I remember there was one of them in particular and it said: 1420 01:16:16,307 --> 01:16:18,741 "I cry for myself as I lie dead 1421 01:16:18,810 --> 01:16:21,944 "for shall they know all 1422 01:16:22,013 --> 01:16:25,952 that burned my brain and breast." 1423 01:16:35,827 --> 01:16:38,139 When did your husband first start at Sing Sing? 1424 01:16:38,163 --> 01:16:41,597 In 1950, he was appointed by the governor 1425 01:16:41,666 --> 01:16:45,467 and the year after that Ethel and Julius 1426 01:16:45,536 --> 01:16:49,371 were brought into the death house. 1427 01:16:49,440 --> 01:16:53,175 And for the next two years he saw them every single week. 1428 01:16:53,244 --> 01:16:56,878 And then of course that day, that fateful day. 1429 01:16:56,947 --> 01:17:00,949 He was at the corner gasoline station getting gas 1430 01:17:01,018 --> 01:17:03,786 and he hears the news on the car radio, 1431 01:17:03,855 --> 01:17:07,290 that the Rosenbergs are gonna be executed that night. 1432 01:17:07,359 --> 01:17:11,594 And he was in shock. 1433 01:17:11,663 --> 01:17:15,931 And he called me from the gas station he said, 1434 01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:17,166 "I'm not coming home, 1435 01:17:17,235 --> 01:17:18,901 "I'm going straight up to Sing Sing. 1436 01:17:18,970 --> 01:17:20,737 I have to be with them." 1437 01:17:20,806 --> 01:17:22,505 And then of course he had the bitter choice 1438 01:17:22,574 --> 01:17:25,207 of having to choose which one goes first. 1439 01:17:25,276 --> 01:17:30,813 And so at that point he felt that Julius 1440 01:17:30,882 --> 01:17:33,482 was more nervous than Ethel. 1441 01:17:33,551 --> 01:17:38,121 And so he thought maybe he should be the one to go first. 1442 01:17:38,190 --> 01:17:42,091 And he had to walk with him to the chair. 1443 01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:43,993 They strap him in, 1444 01:17:44,062 --> 01:17:46,529 he stands in front of him, like I am before you, 1445 01:17:46,598 --> 01:17:49,766 and has to stand there and witness 1446 01:17:49,835 --> 01:17:52,071 that electrocution. 1447 01:17:55,907 --> 01:17:58,708 And then, he had to walk back 1448 01:17:58,777 --> 01:18:01,243 and go to Ethel, 1449 01:18:01,312 --> 01:18:04,213 and he said to Ethel... 1450 01:18:04,282 --> 01:18:11,591 "Julius is gone, and you're left, 1451 01:18:13,257 --> 01:18:16,292 "and you're leaving two children without any parents. 1452 01:18:16,361 --> 01:18:20,796 "You still have a chance to save yourself. 1453 01:18:20,865 --> 01:18:24,900 "Do you have any name, do you have any thing you could... 1454 01:18:24,969 --> 01:18:27,503 "any name, even if it's a false name, 1455 01:18:27,572 --> 01:18:30,406 something that will save you." 1456 01:18:30,475 --> 01:18:35,912 And she said, "no, I have no name, 1457 01:18:35,981 --> 01:18:38,214 "I'm innocent 1458 01:18:38,283 --> 01:18:42,388 and I'm ready." 1459 01:18:43,655 --> 01:18:45,822 And so, they put her in the chair, 1460 01:18:45,891 --> 01:18:48,691 and I think she was just too small and petite 1461 01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:50,159 for the size of the chair 1462 01:18:50,228 --> 01:18:52,595 and the electrode and it didn't fit her properly, 1463 01:18:52,664 --> 01:18:56,065 and they gave her a shock. 1464 01:18:56,134 --> 01:19:01,804 And the examiner checked her 1465 01:19:01,873 --> 01:19:04,140 and her heart was still beating 1466 01:19:04,209 --> 01:19:07,747 so they had to do it again. 1467 01:19:17,622 --> 01:19:19,089 We rollin' yet? 1468 01:19:19,158 --> 01:19:21,290 Come on! 1469 01:19:21,359 --> 01:19:24,860 Well, the official party arrived at the death house at 8:01 1470 01:19:24,929 --> 01:19:28,163 and they were all seated by 8:02, 1471 01:19:28,232 --> 01:19:32,001 at about that time they brought Julius in first 1472 01:19:32,070 --> 01:19:34,437 and he appeared very calm, almost defiant. 1473 01:19:34,506 --> 01:19:37,306 There was no expression on their faces. 1474 01:19:37,375 --> 01:19:42,845 They sat in the chair without the assistance of the guards. 1475 01:19:42,914 --> 01:19:47,216 She turned to the matron who's been with her all this time 1476 01:19:47,285 --> 01:19:49,952 and shook her hand then she impulsively 1477 01:19:50,021 --> 01:19:51,632 leaned over and kissed her. 1478 01:19:51,656 --> 01:19:53,489 In Rosenberg's case 1479 01:19:53,558 --> 01:19:56,693 it was all over in a very few minutes, 1480 01:19:56,762 --> 01:19:58,895 she died a lot harder. 1481 01:19:58,964 --> 01:20:02,998 Believing she was dead the attendants 1482 01:20:03,067 --> 01:20:07,804 had taken off the ghastly strappings, electrodes, 1483 01:20:07,873 --> 01:20:10,874 and black belts, and so forth, 1484 01:20:10,943 --> 01:20:12,808 and these had to be readjusted again, 1485 01:20:12,877 --> 01:20:14,644 and she was given more electricity 1486 01:20:14,713 --> 01:20:16,312 which started again, 1487 01:20:16,381 --> 01:20:19,783 and kind of a ghastly plume of smoke 1488 01:20:19,852 --> 01:20:21,684 that rose from her head 1489 01:20:21,753 --> 01:20:28,524 and went up against the skylight overhead. 1490 01:20:28,593 --> 01:20:32,495 She was then examined again. 1491 01:20:32,564 --> 01:20:34,831 She was pronounced dead at 8:16, 1492 01:20:34,900 --> 01:20:36,800 that's four and a half minutes after 1493 01:20:36,869 --> 01:20:39,402 she was placed in the chair. 1494 01:20:39,471 --> 01:20:41,808 Then her body was moved... 1495 01:20:59,591 --> 01:21:01,457 I walked in the house 1496 01:21:01,526 --> 01:21:02,992 and there were all these adults there 1497 01:21:03,061 --> 01:21:04,360 and I said "what happened?" 1498 01:21:04,429 --> 01:21:05,506 And nobody would answer me directly, 1499 01:21:05,530 --> 01:21:09,298 and so I knew that that was it, they were dead. 1500 01:21:09,367 --> 01:21:12,468 I was really incapable of reacting really, 1501 01:21:12,537 --> 01:21:14,436 so I basically just sat down 1502 01:21:14,505 --> 01:21:17,607 and very dry-eyed, just looked at my hands. 1503 01:21:17,676 --> 01:21:20,142 And my friend piped up, 1504 01:21:20,211 --> 01:21:21,588 "you're taking it just like a man, Mike." 1505 01:21:21,612 --> 01:21:23,546 And the woman who we were staying with hugged me 1506 01:21:23,615 --> 01:21:26,015 and said, "you'll stay here with us," 1507 01:21:26,084 --> 01:21:28,016 and I thought, "well, yes, I will". 1508 01:21:28,085 --> 01:21:31,888 Was there anyone that you felt 1509 01:21:31,957 --> 01:21:33,423 that was there to comfort you? 1510 01:21:33,492 --> 01:21:35,491 Not in those months. 1511 01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:37,827 Those months were not very good months 1512 01:21:37,896 --> 01:21:39,695 if I remember correctly. 1513 01:21:39,764 --> 01:21:42,265 I wasn't adjusting very well to that kind of life. 1514 01:21:42,334 --> 01:21:46,202 Up until June 1953 there was always some kind of hope, 1515 01:21:46,271 --> 01:21:49,272 but after that it was, you know... 1516 01:21:49,341 --> 01:21:53,309 So everything, all the bad stuff that could have come out 1517 01:21:53,378 --> 01:21:56,245 that was sort of held in abeyance by the hope 1518 01:21:56,314 --> 01:21:58,648 started to come out, the recriminations. 1519 01:21:58,717 --> 01:22:00,349 I was, you know... 1520 01:22:00,418 --> 01:22:03,319 I didn't do well in school, I was not in great shape. 1521 01:22:03,388 --> 01:22:09,225 My father remembers you driving up with a station wagon 1522 01:22:09,294 --> 01:22:11,527 with a bed rigged in the back 1523 01:22:11,596 --> 01:22:13,862 and that you were coming to maybe adopt them? 1524 01:22:13,931 --> 01:22:16,832 Actually, we were going to the west coast 1525 01:22:16,901 --> 01:22:21,270 and I regretted not putting them in the car 1526 01:22:21,339 --> 01:22:23,739 and taking them with us. 1527 01:22:23,808 --> 01:22:27,543 On the other hand with the FBI following us all the way 1528 01:22:27,612 --> 01:22:31,113 again it was how much do you expose them to? 1529 01:22:31,182 --> 01:22:32,648 There was surveillance. 1530 01:22:32,717 --> 01:22:35,951 So, you were concerned in a way... 1531 01:22:36,020 --> 01:22:37,865 We expected to get arrested soon too. 1532 01:22:37,889 --> 01:22:40,690 We expected that our turn was next. 1533 01:22:40,759 --> 01:22:42,525 You don't bring the boys into that. 1534 01:22:42,594 --> 01:22:43,826 You don't. 1535 01:22:43,895 --> 01:22:45,595 They can't go through it twice, 1536 01:22:45,664 --> 01:22:48,831 they needed exactly what took place, 1537 01:22:48,900 --> 01:22:50,540 they needed the meeropols. 1538 01:22:50,568 --> 01:22:53,869 My husband and I have discussed the thing 1539 01:22:53,938 --> 01:22:56,505 and we had known about the children. 1540 01:22:56,574 --> 01:22:58,141 Although, we did not know the parents, 1541 01:22:58,210 --> 01:23:00,009 we knew Mr. Bloch. 1542 01:23:00,078 --> 01:23:01,944 Manny Bloch was our legal guardian 1543 01:23:02,013 --> 01:23:04,113 after our parents were killed. 1544 01:23:04,182 --> 01:23:09,551 What happened was a woman who was working in Manny's office 1545 01:23:09,620 --> 01:23:12,855 was very close friends with Anne and Abel 1546 01:23:12,924 --> 01:23:14,858 and she basically told Manny, 1547 01:23:14,927 --> 01:23:18,131 "these people would be perfect." 1548 01:23:18,864 --> 01:23:22,432 ...and they adjusted wonderful. 1549 01:23:22,501 --> 01:23:26,902 I love Anne, and I love Abel. 1550 01:23:26,971 --> 01:23:28,850 I asked the children whether they were satisfied, 1551 01:23:28,874 --> 01:23:30,354 and they said, "I love them. 1552 01:23:30,409 --> 01:23:32,342 I love Anne, and I love Abel." 1553 01:23:32,411 --> 01:23:36,579 Anne and Abel were leftist intellectuals. 1554 01:23:36,648 --> 01:23:40,182 Daddy was a New York City public school teacher, 1555 01:23:40,251 --> 01:23:41,529 who was a writer, 1556 01:23:41,553 --> 01:23:44,052 and when we met him he was a full-time writer, 1557 01:23:44,121 --> 01:23:47,390 and she was a full-time you know, sort of drama person. 1558 01:23:47,459 --> 01:23:49,959 So they both had a lot of time for us. 1559 01:23:50,028 --> 01:23:53,129 They gave us tremendous, tremendous attention. 1560 01:23:53,198 --> 01:23:56,099 So, do you remember taking an immediate liking to them? 1561 01:23:56,168 --> 01:23:57,533 Oh yeah, absolutely. 1562 01:23:57,602 --> 01:24:01,170 I mean, daddy was just the most hysterical person 1563 01:24:01,239 --> 01:24:03,083 you'd ever want to meet in your life. 1564 01:24:03,107 --> 01:24:06,942 And now folks, we will have Abel say us a few words: 1565 01:24:07,011 --> 01:24:11,214 "Ong-wong-way, kaza-lama-zay, lama-zee lama-zay, 1566 01:24:11,283 --> 01:24:13,682 tishy-Patty-wama-zay awky-pawky ong-wong-way." 1567 01:24:13,751 --> 01:24:16,318 Thank you, Abel, that was a very nice speech. 1568 01:24:16,387 --> 01:24:19,455 And now we give you, Michael Meeropol. 1569 01:24:19,524 --> 01:24:23,526 The family lore was after we were adopted 1570 01:24:23,595 --> 01:24:25,828 and disappeared from public view, 1571 01:24:25,897 --> 01:24:29,432 was that we had been taken by the communists. 1572 01:24:29,501 --> 01:24:31,534 That was the family lore. 1573 01:24:31,603 --> 01:24:33,869 And at that point you were already feeling 1574 01:24:33,938 --> 01:24:35,438 very attached to the meeropols. 1575 01:24:35,507 --> 01:24:36,917 Oh yeah, absolutely, those tapes, those tapes 1576 01:24:36,941 --> 01:24:40,176 those were the things that were happening in January 1577 01:24:40,245 --> 01:24:43,279 and I loved my school, everything was great... 1578 01:24:43,348 --> 01:24:44,547 And then, oh god. 1579 01:24:44,616 --> 01:24:48,651 Certain people in the welfare industry, 1580 01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,154 basically conspired to try to get us away from Anne and Abel. 1581 01:24:52,223 --> 01:24:55,291 And the guy puts us in a home 1582 01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:57,060 and Robby and I are back in a home. 1583 01:24:57,129 --> 01:24:58,729 Oh, it was the most horrible two days. 1584 01:24:58,797 --> 01:25:00,996 It was as bad as any other time. 1585 01:25:01,065 --> 01:25:03,900 Mrs. Meeropol, we want to know what's going to happen now? 1586 01:25:03,969 --> 01:25:05,379 Are you going to get the children back? 1587 01:25:05,403 --> 01:25:06,503 Do you want them back? 1588 01:25:06,572 --> 01:25:07,904 Well, we do want them back. 1589 01:25:07,973 --> 01:25:09,149 We had hoped that they could stay with us 1590 01:25:09,173 --> 01:25:10,573 even during this interval period, 1591 01:25:10,642 --> 01:25:14,577 because we feel that the children need to be with us, 1592 01:25:14,646 --> 01:25:16,745 and we want them and we love them 1593 01:25:16,814 --> 01:25:18,359 as though they were our own... 1594 01:25:18,383 --> 01:25:21,217 And then the whole committee structure rallies. 1595 01:25:21,286 --> 01:25:22,719 Rosenberg committee? 1596 01:25:22,788 --> 01:25:25,922 Yeah, and they go before a guy named McNally, 1597 01:25:25,991 --> 01:25:27,402 the supreme court judge, 1598 01:25:27,426 --> 01:25:29,158 and here's what's kind of interesting. 1599 01:25:29,227 --> 01:25:30,927 He's a catholic, and a Jewish judge 1600 01:25:30,996 --> 01:25:32,495 has ordered us to go to the home. 1601 01:25:32,564 --> 01:25:34,296 And McNally was very smart. 1602 01:25:34,365 --> 01:25:38,234 He paroled us in our grandmother's custody. 1603 01:25:38,303 --> 01:25:41,504 He has this great statement, "Mrs. Rosenberg, 1604 01:25:41,573 --> 01:25:44,173 "I am counting on you to take these children, 1605 01:25:44,242 --> 01:25:45,620 "and care for these children, 1606 01:25:45,644 --> 01:25:48,078 "teach them out of the old testament, 1607 01:25:48,147 --> 01:25:49,523 "teach them, as you have, 1608 01:25:49,547 --> 01:25:52,615 "the tenets of your ancient and honorable religion, 1609 01:25:52,684 --> 01:25:55,284 "never let anyone talk to these children 1610 01:25:55,353 --> 01:25:57,286 "in derogation against this country, 1611 01:25:57,355 --> 01:25:58,566 "it is their country too, 1612 01:25:58,590 --> 01:26:01,657 that is a sad and distressing situation..." 1613 01:26:01,726 --> 01:26:02,937 I mean, what a wonderful guy. 1614 01:26:02,961 --> 01:26:04,193 That was a great... 1615 01:26:04,262 --> 01:26:06,040 I think that was the turning point in our lives, 1616 01:26:06,064 --> 01:26:07,842 because it was the first victory 1617 01:26:07,866 --> 01:26:09,906 our family had ever had in the courts. 1618 01:26:34,025 --> 01:26:36,626 And I can't really explain why I never bothered 1619 01:26:36,695 --> 01:26:38,461 to find out where the grave was, 1620 01:26:38,530 --> 01:26:41,731 and go to the grave, but I think part of it was just, 1621 01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:46,506 why put myself through that? 1622 01:26:56,415 --> 01:26:58,014 It's in this plot. 1623 01:26:58,083 --> 01:27:00,016 It is in this big plot. 1624 01:27:00,085 --> 01:27:02,051 I think we should go further in. 1625 01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,286 Oh, she didn't give me a row. 1626 01:27:04,355 --> 01:27:06,058 Nah, she's making it difficult. 1627 01:27:18,169 --> 01:27:20,536 We gotta like, look down all these rows, huh? 1628 01:27:20,605 --> 01:27:22,542 Shit. 1629 01:27:35,754 --> 01:27:37,921 I feel like I'll just see it. 1630 01:27:37,990 --> 01:27:39,392 I think I see it over there. 1631 01:27:50,102 --> 01:27:51,938 This is it. 1632 01:27:54,706 --> 01:27:56,309 I found it... 1633 01:28:13,958 --> 01:28:18,061 See, it's sad that... 1634 01:28:18,130 --> 01:28:20,666 No... 1635 01:28:25,003 --> 01:28:26,735 I was just gonna say it's sad 1636 01:28:26,804 --> 01:28:33,509 that theirs doesn't say "beloved husband/father," 1637 01:28:33,578 --> 01:28:38,718 you know, like these people right next door. 1638 01:29:10,281 --> 01:29:13,216 It seems like because of the position they took 1639 01:29:13,285 --> 01:29:18,854 we all get to live a life where we're proud. 1640 01:29:18,923 --> 01:29:23,426 Yeah, which is interesting because some people would say 1641 01:29:23,495 --> 01:29:25,206 this is self-delusion, 1642 01:29:25,230 --> 01:29:27,764 I mean, why would you be proud of traitors? 1643 01:29:27,833 --> 01:29:30,603 But I don't accept that. 1644 01:29:49,153 --> 01:29:53,021 Sort of a macabre, bizarre speculation 1645 01:29:53,090 --> 01:29:56,559 is what would Robby and my life have been like 1646 01:29:56,628 --> 01:29:59,762 if Julius had spent 10 years in jail, 1647 01:29:59,831 --> 01:30:02,165 confessed, named a whole bunch of names, 1648 01:30:02,234 --> 01:30:03,578 been a witness somewhere, 1649 01:30:03,602 --> 01:30:05,301 Ethel had never gone to jail, 1650 01:30:05,370 --> 01:30:08,805 we had been brought up with new names, 1651 01:30:08,874 --> 01:30:11,173 but really hidden this time, 1652 01:30:11,242 --> 01:30:14,143 so that we could if we had wanted to, 1653 01:30:14,212 --> 01:30:15,756 never tell you and Gregory, 1654 01:30:15,780 --> 01:30:20,950 but certainly the kind of life that we would have led 1655 01:30:21,019 --> 01:30:24,987 if your grandfather had been another David Greenglass 1656 01:30:25,056 --> 01:30:27,176 and your grandmother had been another Ruth Greenglass, 1657 01:30:27,225 --> 01:30:29,425 I mean, that's a life that I... 1658 01:30:29,494 --> 01:30:33,666 I have to say I'm happy I didn't lead<i> that</i> life. 1659 01:30:44,075 --> 01:30:46,776 It's really about bringing them back home, 1660 01:30:46,845 --> 01:30:49,112 they were my dad's parents, 1661 01:30:49,181 --> 01:30:51,480 and they were my grandparents, 1662 01:30:51,549 --> 01:30:56,489 so it's reclaiming this story for our family. 1662 01:30:57,305 --> 01:31:57,172 Do you want subtitles for any video? -=[ ai.OpenSubtitles.com ]=-