Tantura

1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,074 Watch Online Movies and Series for FREE www.osdb.link/lm 2 00:00:55,457 --> 00:00:58,105 Afghanistan: no. 3 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,253 Argentina: abstention. 4 00:01:01,983 --> 00:01:04,217 France: yes. 5 00:01:04,728 --> 00:01:06,689 Ghana: no. 6 00:01:07,785 --> 00:01:09,895 Lebanon: no. 7 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,177 Soviet Union: yes. 8 00:01:14,077 --> 00:01:17,492 United Kingdom: abstain. 9 00:01:18,177 --> 00:01:20,380 United States: yes. 10 00:01:20,405 --> 00:01:21,436 (gavel pounding) 11 00:01:21,461 --> 00:01:24,394 The resolution of the ad hoc committee 12 00:01:24,419 --> 00:01:27,888 for Palestine was adopted by 33 votes. 13 00:01:28,222 --> 00:01:30,487 Thirteen against, 10 abstained. 14 00:01:30,547 --> 00:01:32,930 (applause) 15 00:01:37,785 --> 00:01:39,074 (birds chirping) 16 00:01:57,764 --> 00:01:59,194 (door opens) 17 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:09,798 (gramophone lever squeaks) 18 00:02:11,568 --> 00:02:13,576 (aged music) 19 00:02:23,847 --> 00:02:25,327 My name is Yitzhak Pinto. 20 00:02:25,647 --> 00:02:28,567 I'm 93 years of age. I was born in 1927. 21 00:02:29,607 --> 00:02:31,247 What you see here 22 00:02:31,327 --> 00:02:36,487 are original items that the Kibbutz and its members used. 23 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:37,655 (switch clicks) 24 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:38,760 Everything works. 25 00:02:38,999 --> 00:02:41,163 (switch clicks and film rolls) 26 00:02:42,447 --> 00:02:44,607 Nachsholim is 73 years old. 27 00:02:45,487 --> 00:02:48,207 On June 14, 1948, we were here, 28 00:02:48,407 --> 00:02:50,847 one month after the establishment of the State. 29 00:02:51,407 --> 00:02:55,247 At that point the Alexandroni Brigade had seized Tantura 30 00:02:55,367 --> 00:02:58,727 and we were suddenly informed: "You're not going anywhere. 31 00:02:58,887 --> 00:03:01,247 "You will build your kibbutz here." 32 00:03:01,591 --> 00:03:03,052 (aged music continues) 33 00:03:03,287 --> 00:03:06,333 63 people came to settle here. Of them, 34 00:03:07,224 --> 00:03:08,847 only three girls and myself remain. 35 00:03:16,662 --> 00:03:17,720 Far away. 36 00:03:17,744 --> 00:03:19,687 Just put it there and that's it. 37 00:03:20,287 --> 00:03:21,727 Give it to me. 38 00:03:22,607 --> 00:03:25,167 No, not to you. Put it there. 39 00:03:25,847 --> 00:03:29,007 "Look, see the glory of this day..." 40 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,130 (stately music) 41 00:03:37,259 --> 00:03:39,647 We came to Tantura in 1948. 42 00:03:39,847 --> 00:03:42,525 - In June, 1948. - In June 1948. 43 00:03:42,550 --> 00:03:43,588 -June 14. 44 00:03:43,734 --> 00:03:47,287 - What was here at the beginning? - Sand and more sand. 45 00:03:47,367 --> 00:03:50,367 And the Arab village of Tantura. 46 00:03:50,807 --> 00:03:53,527 We came to the Arab village. 47 00:03:53,847 --> 00:03:57,607 Each of us took a room in the village. 48 00:03:58,167 --> 00:04:00,007 It was a very big village. 49 00:04:00,607 --> 00:04:02,407 That's where we settled. 50 00:04:02,767 --> 00:04:07,007 One house was turned into a dining hall. 51 00:04:07,487 --> 00:04:08,887 It was the sheikh's house. 52 00:04:09,327 --> 00:04:13,527 - Six tables, that's it. - In front, there was a terrace 53 00:04:13,647 --> 00:04:18,767 with this smooth burgundy floor, on cement, so beautiful. 54 00:04:18,847 --> 00:04:21,487 We always danced there, by the sea. 55 00:04:21,847 --> 00:04:23,967 We were a few meters from the sea. 56 00:04:25,888 --> 00:04:30,207 We loved the village too, even though it was horrible. 57 00:04:30,287 --> 00:04:32,438 What we remember are the good memories. 58 00:04:32,463 --> 00:04:33,607 Yes, exactly, 59 00:04:33,687 --> 00:04:37,847 - I have only good memories... - Me too. 60 00:04:37,927 --> 00:04:41,550 ...because I'm fed up with remembering bad things. 61 00:04:42,541 --> 00:04:45,041 (dramatic music) 62 00:04:56,959 --> 00:04:59,301 (music continues) 63 00:05:21,151 --> 00:05:23,268 (music continues) 64 00:06:04,988 --> 00:06:07,348 (birds chirping) 65 00:06:08,214 --> 00:06:10,188 (scooter hums) 66 00:06:19,203 --> 00:06:20,803 My name is Teddy Katz. 67 00:06:21,003 --> 00:06:23,643 Teddy is short for Theodor. 68 00:06:24,043 --> 00:06:26,518 I was named after Binyamin Ze'ev 69 00:06:26,530 --> 00:06:29,243 Theodor Herzl. 70 00:06:29,563 --> 00:06:32,443 My whole life I thought, and I still think 71 00:06:33,123 --> 00:06:36,963 that the root of the disaster, 72 00:06:37,275 --> 00:06:41,115 including the part... that can be called the contamination, 73 00:06:41,283 --> 00:06:43,083 is 1948. 74 00:06:43,283 --> 00:06:44,803 To this day, 75 00:06:45,923 --> 00:06:47,363 the vast majority 76 00:06:47,923 --> 00:06:50,243 of what happened in 1948 77 00:06:51,723 --> 00:06:54,803 is not only hushed up, but also destroyed. 78 00:06:54,980 --> 00:06:57,159 (somber music) 79 00:07:08,003 --> 00:07:12,323 In the War of Independence, we knew one simple thing: 80 00:07:12,643 --> 00:07:14,923 it's either me or them. 81 00:07:15,643 --> 00:07:17,373 It's either me or them. You never 82 00:07:17,385 --> 00:07:18,923 knew if you'd even come back. 83 00:07:20,963 --> 00:07:26,043 The Arabs are an evil, cruel, vindictive enemy, 84 00:07:27,323 --> 00:07:28,883 but... 85 00:07:29,963 --> 00:07:32,683 we were better, in battle. 86 00:07:32,923 --> 00:07:34,083 Always. 87 00:07:34,523 --> 00:07:38,123 For the most part 88 00:07:38,203 --> 00:07:40,923 we were kids, 18 years old. 89 00:07:41,043 --> 00:07:43,483 Some were even 17. 90 00:07:43,866 --> 00:07:45,522 (music continues) 91 00:07:46,603 --> 00:07:50,923 The feeling was of something that didn't exist in the world. 92 00:07:51,523 --> 00:07:54,422 We knew that by fighting the war, 93 00:07:54,434 --> 00:07:57,003 we would establish the State. 94 00:08:01,203 --> 00:08:03,403 "A state is seized by the sword." 95 00:08:03,483 --> 00:08:05,243 That's what my father told me: 96 00:08:05,363 --> 00:08:07,019 "You take a country by force." 97 00:08:09,506 --> 00:08:11,849 (solemn music) 98 00:08:18,083 --> 00:08:20,123 Of course we killed them. 99 00:08:20,843 --> 00:08:22,523 We killed them... 100 00:08:23,723 --> 00:08:26,443 without remorse. 101 00:08:27,315 --> 00:08:28,425 Just like that. 102 00:08:30,643 --> 00:08:33,443 If you killed, you did a good thing. 103 00:08:39,763 --> 00:08:42,083 When I think of myself, 104 00:08:42,323 --> 00:08:44,683 I was willing to kill, 105 00:08:45,043 --> 00:08:47,083 because that's how I was raised, 106 00:08:47,163 --> 00:08:51,883 that this way, we'll destroy our enemies, 107 00:08:51,963 --> 00:08:58,163 or they'll avoid us, because they fear us. 108 00:09:04,203 --> 00:09:06,763 I didn't talk to anyone about it. 109 00:09:07,883 --> 00:09:08,912 Nobody. 110 00:09:08,937 --> 00:09:10,547 What about your wife? I assume you lived with her 111 00:09:10,571 --> 00:09:12,155 for many years. You didn't talk to her about it? 112 00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:13,988 -I never told her. 113 00:09:15,083 --> 00:09:17,191 What would I tell her? That I was a murderer? 114 00:09:19,126 --> 00:09:20,634 (laughs) 115 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:24,981 (film rolling) 116 00:09:26,375 --> 00:09:27,375 (click) 117 00:09:31,145 --> 00:09:32,754 (crutches hit the floor) 118 00:09:46,005 --> 00:09:49,044 (mechanical chair slowly lowers) 119 00:09:58,490 --> 00:10:01,170 Nice. Do you want anything to drink? 120 00:10:02,443 --> 00:10:03,462 Not yet. 121 00:10:05,803 --> 00:10:07,363 Teddy, how's it going? 122 00:10:07,683 --> 00:10:09,523 Thank God, it's going well. 123 00:10:09,963 --> 00:10:13,483 Teddy, if you get tired, tell me and we'll take a break, okay? 124 00:10:14,083 --> 00:10:15,243 Okay. 125 00:10:15,363 --> 00:10:16,657 I want you tell me what you 126 00:10:16,669 --> 00:10:18,363 remember as naturally as you can. 127 00:10:18,523 --> 00:10:20,163 Look, before you begin, 128 00:10:20,523 --> 00:10:24,184 I want to tell you that I've had a few strokes. 129 00:10:25,083 --> 00:10:27,258 I'm not sure that I remember everything. 130 00:10:28,003 --> 00:10:31,487 The first stroke was linked to this incident. 131 00:10:32,363 --> 00:10:33,842 Do you think people were killed there 132 00:10:33,867 --> 00:10:35,412 after the battle ended? Are you sure? 133 00:10:36,575 --> 00:10:40,243 First of all, I'm sure of it, secondly, they told me so... 134 00:10:40,483 --> 00:10:42,776 and thirdly, I have the tapes. 135 00:10:43,403 --> 00:10:45,003 Where are the tapes? 136 00:10:45,083 --> 00:10:46,246 In the other room. 137 00:10:46,258 --> 00:10:49,043 We have a room, called the "Tantura" room. 138 00:10:49,123 --> 00:10:50,538 There is an entire collection: 139 00:10:51,171 --> 00:10:54,083 tapes, folders, books, you name it. 140 00:10:54,163 --> 00:10:57,403 Everything on Tantura is in that room. Should I get it? 141 00:10:57,547 --> 00:10:58,586 Yes. 142 00:10:59,203 --> 00:11:01,843 How many tapes are there? - If you have a few days... 143 00:11:02,003 --> 00:11:09,683 That's the thing. There are about 140 hours. 144 00:11:10,563 --> 00:11:14,363 Half are interviews with Arabs, and half with Jews. 145 00:11:16,043 --> 00:11:18,588 This is where they said everything. 146 00:11:21,003 --> 00:11:23,083 Here, tapes... 147 00:11:23,163 --> 00:11:27,923 I approached people and told them I wanted to write a paper. 148 00:11:28,043 --> 00:11:30,443 These are the soldiers of the Alexandroni Brigade. 149 00:11:30,923 --> 00:11:32,723 It's also arranged by date. 150 00:11:33,203 --> 00:11:36,283 How long did you spend on this, recording them? 151 00:11:36,403 --> 00:11:38,523 Around two years. 152 00:11:39,123 --> 00:11:42,883 So what? You go to them and hit "Record"? 153 00:11:43,243 --> 00:11:48,563 Each person who spoke to me, did it at his own home. 154 00:11:49,283 --> 00:11:51,773 I went from house to house, and 155 00:11:51,785 --> 00:11:54,443 they each sent me to more people. 156 00:11:55,283 --> 00:11:58,519 You need to take into account that they were in their 70s, 157 00:11:59,603 --> 00:12:00,923 meaning that 158 00:12:01,443 --> 00:12:04,803 we recorded the tapes some 20 years ago. 159 00:12:05,643 --> 00:12:07,163 Can I listen to them? 160 00:12:07,763 --> 00:12:11,003 You can take the tapes and listen to them, 161 00:12:11,123 --> 00:12:14,283 but if you want to make a movie out of it, 162 00:12:14,723 --> 00:12:19,612 be careful, because you'll be hunted down like I was. 163 00:12:20,725 --> 00:12:23,279 (wistful music) 164 00:12:31,911 --> 00:12:33,435 (cassette clicks into place) 165 00:12:34,338 --> 00:12:35,338 (button clicks) 166 00:12:35,363 --> 00:12:40,163 Let's organize it a bit, so that we have it all on record. 167 00:12:40,923 --> 00:12:44,443 - Your name is Asher Breitbart. - Asher Breitbart. 168 00:12:44,723 --> 00:12:46,718 How did you find Asher's address? 169 00:12:46,743 --> 00:12:47,904 Henio. (click) 170 00:12:50,453 --> 00:12:52,461 (wistful music continues) 171 00:13:01,354 --> 00:13:02,354 (tape player clicks) 172 00:13:03,843 --> 00:13:06,877 Do you do a lot of this, Teddy? 173 00:13:06,902 --> 00:13:07,938 Yes. 174 00:13:07,963 --> 00:13:10,043 And people remember a lot of it? 175 00:13:10,123 --> 00:13:12,283 Some remember more, some less. 176 00:13:12,443 --> 00:13:14,988 Yeah, people don't remember much from the War of Independence. 177 00:13:15,013 --> 00:13:16,021 (tape player clicks) 178 00:13:16,722 --> 00:13:17,738 (tape player clicks) 179 00:13:17,763 --> 00:13:21,043 I collect whatever each person remembers. 180 00:13:21,123 --> 00:13:23,043 What one person remembers is his truth. 181 00:13:23,556 --> 00:13:25,505 Whatever a person tells me is what 182 00:13:25,517 --> 00:13:27,658 he is left with after 49 years. 183 00:13:27,683 --> 00:13:30,102 It's possible that someone next to him 184 00:13:30,114 --> 00:13:32,483 saw and remembers things differently. 185 00:13:32,508 --> 00:13:33,578 Right, right. 186 00:13:33,894 --> 00:13:35,243 I gather versions, 187 00:13:35,323 --> 00:13:38,883 For all I care I'll gather 360 versions. I crosscheck them. 188 00:13:39,043 --> 00:13:41,496 At some point, all the versions intersect. 189 00:13:41,521 --> 00:13:42,521 (tape player clicks) 190 00:13:44,801 --> 00:13:46,401 {\an8}What happened in Tantura 191 00:13:46,568 --> 00:13:50,203 {\an8}I can't tell you... There are all kinds of rumors 192 00:13:50,283 --> 00:13:53,083 {\an8}that prisoners were killed... that prisoners weren't killed... 193 00:13:53,163 --> 00:13:55,763 I don't know. These are things I heard... 194 00:13:55,843 --> 00:13:59,235 and I didn't take part in them in a... 195 00:14:00,163 --> 00:14:01,319 That's it. What... 196 00:14:01,331 --> 00:14:04,283 But from what you heard, because obviously... 197 00:14:04,403 --> 00:14:07,763 the underlying idea was that in Tantura, probably... 198 00:14:08,043 --> 00:14:10,923 some people at least, maybe even all of them, 199 00:14:11,003 --> 00:14:13,923 retaliated for the deaths of many of our men, 200 00:14:14,243 --> 00:14:18,523 and many Arabs were massacred. Those were the rumors. 201 00:14:21,243 --> 00:14:22,976 Undoubtedly, it was a combination 202 00:14:22,988 --> 00:14:24,323 of all kinds of things... 203 00:14:24,403 --> 00:14:28,763 of... vengeance and cruelty... and people who came from... 204 00:14:28,843 --> 00:14:31,603 Some people came from the death camps. 205 00:14:31,710 --> 00:14:34,062 (tape player clicks) (cassette snaps into place) 206 00:14:36,443 --> 00:14:38,773 The question is: What happened there 207 00:14:38,785 --> 00:14:41,443 that people were in such a trance that... 208 00:14:41,751 --> 00:14:43,763 based on several testimonies, 209 00:14:44,123 --> 00:14:47,643 they released their anger on everyone they saw. 210 00:14:47,723 --> 00:14:48,963 What happened there? 211 00:14:49,283 --> 00:14:50,843 Look... 212 00:14:51,523 --> 00:14:58,363 it's a story I tried to make sense of after the war. 213 00:14:59,003 --> 00:15:01,603 After the war, I asked myself: 214 00:15:01,723 --> 00:15:04,523 How can one become a normal person after all this? 215 00:15:05,283 --> 00:15:06,843 How do you make peace with yourself? 216 00:15:06,963 --> 00:15:10,803 Just to be a normal person. You killed and murdered without... 217 00:15:11,283 --> 00:15:16,083 If a friend of yours was killed, you would lose control. 218 00:15:16,163 --> 00:15:18,163 - Your nerves... - You would lose control. 219 00:15:18,723 --> 00:15:21,283 Everyone there had their residual issues... 220 00:15:21,403 --> 00:15:22,498 And then it unloads. 221 00:15:22,510 --> 00:15:24,531 Then it simply unloads. You can't help it. 222 00:15:25,243 --> 00:15:26,963 I need to understand something. 223 00:15:27,083 --> 00:15:29,243 - Did you understand what I... - Absolutely, 224 00:15:29,268 --> 00:15:32,923 but I want to add something that keeps me occupied. 225 00:15:33,283 --> 00:15:36,197 Can you attribute this behavior that you're 226 00:15:36,209 --> 00:15:39,203 describing, which is the behavior of people, 227 00:15:39,228 --> 00:15:42,123 it's not the behavior of murderers... 228 00:15:42,148 --> 00:15:43,386 It's the behavior of normal people... 229 00:15:43,398 --> 00:15:44,618 No, it's not the behavior of people. 230 00:15:44,643 --> 00:15:45,949 I'm saying it's the behavior of 231 00:15:45,961 --> 00:15:47,403 regular people of flesh and blood. 232 00:15:47,483 --> 00:15:48,955 It's not the normal behavior of people. 233 00:15:48,967 --> 00:15:50,683 That's what I'm telling you. 234 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:53,391 (tape player clicks) 235 00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:54,610 (clap) 236 00:15:55,923 --> 00:15:58,243 My name is Yaacov Erez, 237 00:15:59,323 --> 00:16:04,403 and in a few days time I will be 95. 238 00:16:04,428 --> 00:16:05,458 (slow flute music) 239 00:16:05,483 --> 00:16:08,826 At the time the State was established, 240 00:16:08,838 --> 00:16:11,763 I was in battle in Arab Kfar Saba, 241 00:16:11,923 --> 00:16:15,963 We heard Ben Gurion's speech. 242 00:16:16,683 --> 00:16:21,037 We were lying between the rocks and were tired. 243 00:16:21,049 --> 00:16:25,203 There was a truck with a radio. 244 00:16:25,363 --> 00:16:30,483 He turned up the volume, and we heard them declaring the State. 245 00:16:31,847 --> 00:16:34,527 Only then did the war begin. 246 00:16:36,174 --> 00:16:39,563 Six thousand soldiers fell in the War of Independence. 247 00:16:39,643 --> 00:16:41,503 There wasn't one battle from 248 00:16:41,515 --> 00:16:43,923 which everyone came back. Not one. 249 00:16:44,281 --> 00:16:46,789 (music softens) 250 00:16:50,820 --> 00:16:52,070 (sighs) 251 00:16:52,363 --> 00:16:54,963 Henio, are you okay? 252 00:16:56,563 --> 00:17:01,163 I'm not dying yet. Yes? I'm fine. 253 00:17:01,323 --> 00:17:06,803 But... its eating at me: Why I can't tell... 254 00:17:11,483 --> 00:17:12,599 You can tell. 255 00:17:13,923 --> 00:17:17,224 I want to tell you about Tantura. 256 00:17:20,537 --> 00:17:22,115 (gloomy piano chords) 257 00:17:23,323 --> 00:17:26,123 Tantura is a very interesting story. 258 00:17:27,403 --> 00:17:31,443 I remember the battle for Tantura. 259 00:17:31,763 --> 00:17:36,403 It was a serious battle. 260 00:17:36,483 --> 00:17:38,761 The village was eradicated. 261 00:17:42,643 --> 00:17:44,163 That's it. 262 00:17:44,643 --> 00:17:47,283 Tantura was a classic battle. 263 00:17:47,763 --> 00:17:50,883 I crossed a field, at five in the morning. 264 00:17:51,003 --> 00:17:53,963 Have you ever seen Gary Cooper running in the movies, 265 00:17:54,363 --> 00:17:56,323 with bullets fired at his feet? 266 00:17:56,963 --> 00:17:58,323 That's how it was for me. 267 00:17:58,348 --> 00:18:01,403 I commanded the force that took Tantura from the north. 268 00:18:02,723 --> 00:18:04,563 And... 269 00:18:05,843 --> 00:18:07,683 Ehhh... 270 00:18:08,003 --> 00:18:09,883 There was a battle, 271 00:18:10,123 --> 00:18:12,643 we had hardly any casualties, 272 00:18:12,803 --> 00:18:13,923 and that's it. 273 00:18:14,110 --> 00:18:15,938 (tape player clicks) (unsettling music continues) 274 00:18:17,203 --> 00:18:22,683 I understand that what happened in Tantura after the takeover, 275 00:18:22,803 --> 00:18:24,403 with the killing, I understand it was... 276 00:18:24,483 --> 00:18:26,851 Don't say killing. I didn't say killing. 277 00:18:26,863 --> 00:18:27,883 Whatever, but... 278 00:18:27,963 --> 00:18:30,603 that's more or less what happened. The question... 279 00:18:30,683 --> 00:18:33,003 I wouldn't say killing. I wouldn't say killing, 280 00:18:33,083 --> 00:18:36,243 but there was a bit more, actually... 281 00:18:36,723 --> 00:18:39,723 {\an8}They killed a bit more. It didn't happen in many places. 282 00:18:39,803 --> 00:18:43,523 {\an8}It happened here and there. What can I say? Leave it. 283 00:18:43,603 --> 00:18:45,923 {\an8}The question is if... 284 00:18:46,083 --> 00:18:50,203 {\an8}talking about it afterwards, did anyone... 285 00:18:50,283 --> 00:18:53,883 I'm sorry. I put too much emphasis on it. 286 00:18:54,243 --> 00:18:56,563 I don't know what to tell you. Look... 287 00:18:56,644 --> 00:18:57,785 Erase it. 288 00:18:57,841 --> 00:18:58,849 (tape player clicks) 289 00:19:00,163 --> 00:19:03,767 I found seven Jewish people 290 00:19:05,723 --> 00:19:07,759 who did, in fact, say that there was a massacre, 291 00:19:09,483 --> 00:19:13,043 but later, they all fell into line 292 00:19:13,763 --> 00:19:19,243 and denied it. They took their orders from... 293 00:19:19,483 --> 00:19:21,683 I don't remember his last name, Henio. 294 00:19:22,333 --> 00:19:23,333 (solemn music) 295 00:19:23,483 --> 00:19:27,043 {\an8}This affair began at... 296 00:19:27,495 --> 00:19:29,695 {\an8}the university, in Haifa. 297 00:19:31,363 --> 00:19:34,723 {\an8}There was this guy, Teddy Katz. 298 00:19:35,559 --> 00:19:39,523 {\an8}He submitted his M.A. thesis to the university... 299 00:19:40,043 --> 00:19:44,214 I submitted my thesis. I received my grade, 97. 300 00:19:45,483 --> 00:19:48,941 and then when the thesis substance came to light, 301 00:19:49,469 --> 00:19:52,163 there was a massive outcry. 302 00:19:54,003 --> 00:19:56,243 I mostly dealt with what happened here. 303 00:19:56,803 --> 00:19:58,803 What happened here? 304 00:20:00,043 --> 00:20:01,403 Tantura. 305 00:20:03,954 --> 00:20:07,474 What happened here wasn't only pushing 306 00:20:07,483 --> 00:20:11,154 away the Palestinians from their village. 307 00:20:11,714 --> 00:20:18,394 What happened here, is that they did not let the Palestinians 308 00:20:19,874 --> 00:20:22,074 go away just like this. 309 00:20:24,554 --> 00:20:28,754 They, first of all, killed many, many of them 310 00:20:31,034 --> 00:20:36,114 and there was not any reason to do it. 311 00:20:36,492 --> 00:20:37,992 (music continues) 312 00:20:38,243 --> 00:20:40,243 We were turned into murderers. 313 00:20:40,323 --> 00:20:44,883 We lined up the Arabs and shot them for no reason. 314 00:20:45,163 --> 00:20:46,938 Nothing of the sort happened. 315 00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:48,843 Not even one person was murdered there. 316 00:20:49,243 --> 00:20:51,603 This story that a trench was dug 317 00:20:51,803 --> 00:20:55,323 and 300 people were shot and put in it is a myth. 318 00:20:55,643 --> 00:20:59,683 If anyone was killed, it was in battle. 319 00:21:01,803 --> 00:21:04,993 This was an outstanding master's thesis from 320 00:21:05,005 --> 00:21:07,923 the department of Middle Eastern History 321 00:21:08,003 --> 00:21:10,603 that was widely acclaimed. 322 00:21:11,394 --> 00:21:16,314 I didn't expect any problem for him with this work, I must say. 323 00:21:16,554 --> 00:21:19,994 And... he got, as you know, he got a very high grade. 324 00:21:20,747 --> 00:21:26,674 And we all forgot about it until a journalist in "Maariv" 325 00:21:26,754 --> 00:21:28,234 decided to go to the library, 326 00:21:28,434 --> 00:21:31,394 and he publishes in the weekly supplement of "Maariv," 327 00:21:32,914 --> 00:21:35,264 and then all hell broke out. 328 00:21:35,491 --> 00:21:37,311 (news intro fanfare) 329 00:21:38,603 --> 00:21:40,163 {\an8}Hello, Mr. Katz. 330 00:21:40,243 --> 00:21:42,778 {\an8}In your thesis you claim there 331 00:21:42,790 --> 00:21:45,763 {\an8}was a massacre in Tantura in 1948 332 00:21:45,963 --> 00:21:49,003 {\an8}and that 200 Arabs were killed, were murdered. 333 00:21:49,763 --> 00:21:51,723 {\an8}How did you reach these conclusions? 334 00:21:52,003 --> 00:21:54,483 {\an8}There are dozens of testimonies, 335 00:21:55,163 --> 00:21:57,267 {\an8}recorded testimonies, people spoke, 336 00:21:57,279 --> 00:21:59,043 {\an8}and the material is recorded. 337 00:21:59,123 --> 00:22:01,443 We spoke with several professors from the University of Haifa. 338 00:22:01,603 --> 00:22:04,443 Although they declined to take part in this broadcast, 339 00:22:04,523 --> 00:22:06,295 they seriously doubt the authenticity 340 00:22:06,307 --> 00:22:07,763 of the material you assembled. 341 00:22:07,883 --> 00:22:11,131 I sat with 135 interviewees, 342 00:22:11,156 --> 00:22:14,416 half of them Jews, half of them Arabs. 343 00:22:14,763 --> 00:22:17,443 I heard what they said, I recorded them. 344 00:22:17,763 --> 00:22:18,865 - I sat with people-- - Mr. Katz... 345 00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:20,018 -and asked myself, -Mr. Katz... 346 00:22:20,043 --> 00:22:22,027 "Do any of them look like a 347 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:24,803 "murderer, God forbid, or a killer?" 348 00:22:24,973 --> 00:22:29,923 And I confess, they all look like normal people... 349 00:22:30,043 --> 00:22:32,483 It never happened. 350 00:22:33,003 --> 00:22:34,523 It never happened. 351 00:22:35,283 --> 00:22:41,203 He claimed. And then we, the brigade, went to war. 352 00:22:42,634 --> 00:22:44,964 The veterans of the Alexandroni 353 00:22:44,976 --> 00:22:48,074 Brigade, some of whom I knew in person, 354 00:22:49,994 --> 00:22:52,594 called me and complained 355 00:22:52,834 --> 00:22:57,634 how it comes that the university approved such a thesis 356 00:22:58,074 --> 00:22:59,874 and I said, "Well... 357 00:22:59,954 --> 00:23:02,554 "he interviewed you, you told him things." 358 00:23:03,714 --> 00:23:09,514 They argued that he distorted what they said to him, 359 00:23:10,554 --> 00:23:13,714 and I said, "If you have complaints, let's meet 360 00:23:14,314 --> 00:23:17,674 "and we shall try and find a way 361 00:23:18,194 --> 00:23:21,554 "to cope with it in the framework of the university." 362 00:23:22,643 --> 00:23:25,843 I wasn't blinded by the great respect 363 00:23:25,923 --> 00:23:28,207 I undoubtedly have for these people, for 364 00:23:28,219 --> 00:23:30,403 what they did for the State of Israel. 365 00:23:30,483 --> 00:23:32,063 They fought for a year and a half in 366 00:23:32,075 --> 00:23:33,883 order for a state to be established here, 367 00:23:34,003 --> 00:23:38,323 but you saw they couldn't fathom 368 00:23:38,443 --> 00:23:41,803 how such an academic study could take place. 369 00:23:42,043 --> 00:23:44,683 We couldn't stick around in silence 370 00:23:45,643 --> 00:23:51,843 so we decided to sue him for defamation. 371 00:23:52,163 --> 00:23:56,523 Look, there was a trial and it was proven that he lied. 372 00:23:57,923 --> 00:24:00,243 I hate to say this, 373 00:24:00,803 --> 00:24:03,963 you're investigating now, 374 00:24:04,403 --> 00:24:06,203 and you're... 375 00:24:12,003 --> 00:24:14,643 we're done with Teddy Katz. 376 00:24:17,163 --> 00:24:18,963 Why did you take this case? 377 00:24:19,723 --> 00:24:23,043 As a matter of fact, since 1948 378 00:24:23,483 --> 00:24:27,323 there hadn't been a legal case that dealt with the Nakba, 379 00:24:27,523 --> 00:24:29,803 as the Nakba, or with the events of the Nakba. 380 00:24:30,083 --> 00:24:34,083 It was the first case that raised this matter 381 00:24:34,243 --> 00:24:36,031 and I thought it was a very 382 00:24:36,043 --> 00:24:38,443 important trial for our awareness, 383 00:24:38,563 --> 00:24:41,803 for Israelis, who repress this event. 384 00:24:41,963 --> 00:24:45,163 And in my opinion the Alexandroni soldiers 385 00:24:45,323 --> 00:24:49,403 were naive enough, so I thought at first, 386 00:24:49,523 --> 00:24:51,222 to file a defamation suit instead 387 00:24:51,234 --> 00:24:52,643 of letting it be forgotten. 388 00:24:52,723 --> 00:24:54,363 Now, what was it all about? 389 00:24:54,443 --> 00:24:56,763 A university thesis 390 00:24:56,923 --> 00:24:59,523 that would have obviously been forgotten after a while. 391 00:24:59,548 --> 00:25:01,683 No, they insisted on a defamation suit, 392 00:25:01,763 --> 00:25:03,203 and I was glad they did. 393 00:25:03,603 --> 00:25:06,003 It started with one day of legal proceedings, 394 00:25:06,083 --> 00:25:09,243 if I remember correctly Teddy was questioned, 395 00:25:09,443 --> 00:25:10,523 yes, Teddy was questioned, 396 00:25:10,763 --> 00:25:13,923 but things evolved differently from what I expected. 397 00:25:15,122 --> 00:25:18,832 Did you bring the tapes to the trial? Did you play the tapes? 398 00:25:18,857 --> 00:25:20,843 No, we didn't even get to that. 399 00:25:21,347 --> 00:25:24,923 The judge threw him out She didn't want to hear him. 400 00:25:26,003 --> 00:25:28,295 She didn't want to listen. He tried 401 00:25:28,307 --> 00:25:30,483 to speak, she couldn't care less. 402 00:25:30,563 --> 00:25:32,751 Up against people from the brigades, 403 00:25:32,763 --> 00:25:34,963 and the university... he's a nobody. 404 00:25:35,259 --> 00:25:37,688 (birds chirp & cage rattles) 405 00:25:37,906 --> 00:25:40,163 My name is Dr. Drora Pilpel 406 00:25:40,563 --> 00:25:44,323 and I presided over the case known as the Tantura Affair. 407 00:25:44,645 --> 00:25:46,526 The atmosphere in the courtroom, 408 00:25:46,538 --> 00:25:48,363 as I remember, was one of great malaise 409 00:25:48,483 --> 00:25:51,163 on the part of the Alexandroni men, 410 00:25:51,403 --> 00:25:55,883 a strong drive of their lawyer to prove they were in the right, 411 00:25:56,043 --> 00:25:59,361 then there was Mr. Katz, who kind of 412 00:25:59,373 --> 00:26:02,523 reminded me of Moses, 413 00:26:02,548 --> 00:26:04,592 slow of speech and slow of tongue. 414 00:26:06,283 --> 00:26:09,363 You could tell he was frightened by the situation, 415 00:26:09,603 --> 00:26:11,243 he was simply frightened. 416 00:26:11,443 --> 00:26:14,392 And he had this look as if to say, 417 00:26:14,404 --> 00:26:17,283 "When will this day in court end?" 418 00:26:17,736 --> 00:26:19,502 This is an affair that we actually 419 00:26:19,514 --> 00:26:21,043 don't know what happened there, 420 00:26:21,443 --> 00:26:22,541 and there's a mosaic... 421 00:26:22,553 --> 00:26:24,483 Formally we don't know what happened. 422 00:26:24,643 --> 00:26:26,403 - Formally we don't know. - Formally... 423 00:26:26,483 --> 00:26:28,141 What do you think really happened? 424 00:26:28,264 --> 00:26:30,147 (sighs) 425 00:26:31,203 --> 00:26:32,723 That's a question. 426 00:26:32,803 --> 00:26:34,283 That's a question. Yes. 427 00:26:34,363 --> 00:26:36,416 It was clear to me, as it is 428 00:26:36,428 --> 00:26:39,083 today, that there was no genocide. 429 00:26:39,163 --> 00:26:41,563 Look, I don't think Teddy Katz talked about genocide, 430 00:26:41,643 --> 00:26:44,883 he did say that prisoners were killed. 431 00:26:44,963 --> 00:26:47,053 His theory was that they were 432 00:26:47,065 --> 00:26:49,603 lined up against a wall and shot. 433 00:26:49,683 --> 00:26:52,034 - I think that was his theory. - Among other things. 434 00:26:52,059 --> 00:26:53,089 Yes. 435 00:26:53,655 --> 00:26:58,443 Had you heard a clear confession in those cassettes, 436 00:26:58,563 --> 00:27:01,043 by Israeli soldiers, 437 00:27:01,203 --> 00:27:03,692 that hint or talk about such things, 438 00:27:03,704 --> 00:27:06,003 would you have ruled differently? 439 00:27:06,083 --> 00:27:08,883 - Did you hear the tapes? - Would you like to listen? 440 00:27:08,963 --> 00:27:10,843 - I can play them for you. - Yes. 441 00:27:11,843 --> 00:27:13,883 Yes, I want to listen. 442 00:27:23,860 --> 00:27:25,654 This I never heard. 443 00:27:34,443 --> 00:27:37,558 This I never heard. If it's true, it's a shame. 444 00:27:39,965 --> 00:27:42,254 (dog growls) 445 00:27:44,443 --> 00:27:47,483 Calm down, Fifi, it was long ago. 446 00:27:49,624 --> 00:27:51,288 (dog barks loudly) 447 00:27:55,105 --> 00:27:57,624 Listen, in my opinion, if he had such things, 448 00:27:57,636 --> 00:27:59,296 he should have seen it through. 449 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,119 (tape player clicks) 450 00:28:03,683 --> 00:28:06,548 We seized ten prisoners, I think. I saw them. 451 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:07,723 I don't remember. 452 00:28:07,803 --> 00:28:12,883 Some of these younger soldiers I remember, 453 00:28:13,163 --> 00:28:15,511 it's not nice to say, they put them 454 00:28:15,523 --> 00:28:17,883 in a barrel and shot at the barrel, 455 00:28:17,963 --> 00:28:20,339 and I remember the blood in the barrel. 456 00:28:20,351 --> 00:28:21,963 No, no, don't write that. 457 00:28:22,323 --> 00:28:25,843 Rumor had it someone lined them up and shot them, 458 00:28:26,043 --> 00:28:29,003 but I didn't see and I don't know. 459 00:28:29,123 --> 00:28:30,723 And shot them why? 460 00:28:30,843 --> 00:28:34,923 Why? Because he wasn't human. And I know who it was. 461 00:28:35,003 --> 00:28:36,243 But I don't believe it. 462 00:28:36,323 --> 00:28:38,123 You're talking about Company B commander? 463 00:28:38,203 --> 00:28:41,643 No, not a commander, just a soldier. I don't believe it. 464 00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:44,603 I don't believe... I didn't see it with my own eyes. 465 00:28:45,003 --> 00:28:46,843 These were rumors... 466 00:28:46,868 --> 00:28:50,089 I saw some who were lined up in front of the houses and... 467 00:28:52,243 --> 00:28:53,523 There was no massacre. 468 00:28:53,963 --> 00:28:55,763 There was no massacre. 469 00:28:55,911 --> 00:28:57,658 (sad violin) 470 00:28:57,683 --> 00:29:00,283 There was no massacre. It's not true. 471 00:29:00,363 --> 00:29:04,203 - There were stories... - I don't think so, Michal. 472 00:29:04,603 --> 00:29:05,763 - There were... - No. 473 00:29:05,883 --> 00:29:07,763 There was no massacre there. 474 00:29:08,843 --> 00:29:10,403 But they said... 475 00:29:10,883 --> 00:29:13,523 Someone from... not you. 476 00:29:14,083 --> 00:29:17,083 Were people murdered? 477 00:29:17,963 --> 00:29:19,083 I don't think so. 478 00:29:19,483 --> 00:29:22,603 I don't know. There were rumors, but... 479 00:29:23,963 --> 00:29:26,763 No. There was no murder. 480 00:29:30,584 --> 00:29:32,209 (music builds) 481 00:29:32,843 --> 00:29:35,603 We had a company commander in Tantura 482 00:29:35,787 --> 00:29:38,747 who later became an important man in the Defense Ministry. 483 00:29:39,003 --> 00:29:41,297 He shot one Arab after another with his gun 484 00:29:41,309 --> 00:29:43,563 because they didn't give up their weapons. 485 00:29:43,643 --> 00:29:47,736 He shot them one by one with his Parabellum and killed there... 486 00:29:47,761 --> 00:29:48,763 No! 487 00:29:48,843 --> 00:29:51,323 He did what he did and... 488 00:29:51,723 --> 00:29:53,123 That's it. 489 00:29:53,363 --> 00:29:57,203 That's Micha Vitkon. He was with me, the... 490 00:30:01,089 --> 00:30:03,123 I don't know what to say, I... 491 00:30:03,643 --> 00:30:06,163 I don't remember, maybe I saw but I don't remember. 492 00:30:09,083 --> 00:30:10,683 That's not who we are. 493 00:30:10,763 --> 00:30:12,799 Shooting in the head with a Parabellum, 494 00:30:12,811 --> 00:30:14,603 that's exactly what the Nazis did. 495 00:30:14,795 --> 00:30:18,355 I don't believe that... I didn't hear, 496 00:30:18,483 --> 00:30:21,203 that's for sure, but I don't believe it either. 497 00:30:21,369 --> 00:30:23,369 (dramatic string music) 498 00:30:32,163 --> 00:30:34,723 Tantura was a big village... 499 00:30:39,163 --> 00:30:42,203 It was, relatively, one of the wealthiest villages. 500 00:30:45,083 --> 00:30:47,763 We were on very friendly terms with them. 501 00:30:47,788 --> 00:30:51,483 When I was little, maybe five or six years old, 502 00:30:51,508 --> 00:30:55,723 we drove from Zichron to Tantura, 503 00:30:56,056 --> 00:30:59,083 and we lived with the Arabs together in the houses. 504 00:30:59,403 --> 00:31:02,963 We had wonderful relations. 505 00:31:03,443 --> 00:31:08,083 Later there were wars, but there were good days too. 506 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,820 (tape player clicks) (somber music) 507 00:31:10,723 --> 00:31:14,043 There were all kinds of plans on how to seize Tantura. 508 00:31:15,283 --> 00:31:20,483 We were told that it was the only port 509 00:31:20,563 --> 00:31:25,323 that served the Arab gangs. 510 00:31:28,763 --> 00:31:31,483 The plan that was ultimately executed: 511 00:31:31,643 --> 00:31:35,123 Company A from the north, Company B from the eastern side, 512 00:31:35,203 --> 00:31:38,003 and Company C from the south. 513 00:31:39,483 --> 00:31:42,763 It wasn't enough that Company A was in the north, 514 00:31:42,843 --> 00:31:45,452 two navy boats with machine guns 515 00:31:45,464 --> 00:31:48,403 were called in to open fire on them. 516 00:31:48,723 --> 00:31:51,140 Once you surround them from all sides, 517 00:31:51,152 --> 00:31:53,090 they fight harder, they have no choice. 518 00:31:55,163 --> 00:31:58,923 Towards the morning the village was seized. 519 00:31:59,643 --> 00:32:02,514 All the men were rounded up. 520 00:32:02,526 --> 00:32:06,083 A large number of weapons was seized. 521 00:32:06,283 --> 00:32:08,889 Obviously women, children and the 522 00:32:08,901 --> 00:32:11,443 elderly were permitted to leave. 523 00:32:12,523 --> 00:32:17,043 At one point I entered the village, 524 00:32:17,803 --> 00:32:20,283 and it was a beautiful place. 525 00:32:20,563 --> 00:32:23,102 I remember when the battle was over, we went for a swim. 526 00:32:24,403 --> 00:32:29,471 We played around in the clear, beautiful, wonderful, water. 527 00:32:31,090 --> 00:32:33,082 (somber music continues) 528 00:32:35,243 --> 00:32:37,390 Look, that's more or less all I remember 529 00:32:37,402 --> 00:32:39,763 about the Tantura affair. 530 00:32:39,883 --> 00:32:42,788 I don't even remember what was done 531 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,123 with the population that was rounded up. 532 00:32:46,363 --> 00:32:48,043 I really don't remember what happened. 533 00:32:48,096 --> 00:32:49,651 (tape player clicks) 534 00:32:50,243 --> 00:32:56,043 From the morning of May 23, 535 00:32:56,363 --> 00:33:00,483 until the evening when they left the village, 536 00:33:01,203 --> 00:33:03,683 they didn't remember what happened. 537 00:33:03,763 --> 00:33:06,563 Before that they remembered all the details. 538 00:33:06,723 --> 00:33:10,076 After that they remembered that some 539 00:33:10,088 --> 00:33:13,363 of them bathed in the Tantura beach 540 00:33:13,443 --> 00:33:15,443 before leaving the place. 541 00:33:15,523 --> 00:33:22,163 Yet surprisingly throughout the day, they remembered nothing. 542 00:33:22,803 --> 00:33:24,902 We split up, rounded up the 543 00:33:24,914 --> 00:33:27,963 residents, and entered the backyards. 544 00:33:28,203 --> 00:33:30,372 In each yard there were 40 to 50 people. 545 00:33:30,397 --> 00:33:31,491 Forty to 50? 546 00:33:31,503 --> 00:33:34,083 Yes, yes, inside the yards. They were afraid. 547 00:33:34,163 --> 00:33:37,163 They couldn't be alone, so they gathered in these yards. 548 00:33:37,283 --> 00:33:39,046 And they didn't have weapons? 549 00:33:39,058 --> 00:33:41,603 No, these were the residents, residents. 550 00:33:42,673 --> 00:33:44,626 (men shout to each other) 551 00:33:45,861 --> 00:33:46,861 (tape player clicks) 552 00:33:46,883 --> 00:33:49,123 I'll just write down the details. 553 00:33:49,203 --> 00:33:51,083 Rizek Ashmawi. 554 00:33:51,483 --> 00:33:54,003 - You were born in...? - Tantura. 555 00:33:55,043 --> 00:33:59,763 They started rounding up the people from 10:30 or 11:00... 556 00:33:59,843 --> 00:34:01,563 they started rounding up the people. 557 00:34:01,883 --> 00:34:05,603 The men on one side, the women and children on the other. 558 00:34:05,628 --> 00:34:07,531 Men and women separated from the start? 559 00:34:07,556 --> 00:34:08,578 Yes. 560 00:34:08,603 --> 00:34:11,259 But in the same place? Could everyone see everyone? 561 00:34:11,284 --> 00:34:12,289 Yes. 562 00:34:12,314 --> 00:34:15,683 - Where was this? - On the beach. 563 00:34:16,523 --> 00:34:23,043 The women and children were separated from the men 564 00:34:23,403 --> 00:34:27,963 and they sat them down on the beach. 565 00:34:28,283 --> 00:34:30,883 As a 13-year-old, who were you with? 566 00:34:30,963 --> 00:34:32,637 I was... I went with the men. 567 00:34:32,662 --> 00:34:33,683 Uh-huh. 568 00:34:34,083 --> 00:34:39,363 In battle a maximum of ten people from Tantura were killed. 569 00:34:39,843 --> 00:34:41,353 No more than ten people from 570 00:34:41,365 --> 00:34:43,323 Tantura were killed in the battle. 571 00:34:43,443 --> 00:34:45,577 After they occupied, they started 572 00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:47,483 to pile people and shot them. 573 00:34:47,609 --> 00:34:48,617 (tape player clicks) 574 00:34:48,763 --> 00:34:51,843 We occupied Tantura, we caught a lot of Arabs. 575 00:34:52,203 --> 00:34:53,883 We rounded them up. 576 00:34:54,323 --> 00:34:56,523 It's a story... 577 00:34:57,908 --> 00:34:59,010 (laughs) 578 00:34:59,723 --> 00:35:00,883 Great. 579 00:35:00,963 --> 00:35:03,003 There were some 15, 20. 580 00:35:03,963 --> 00:35:05,628 We kept an eye on them. 581 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,210 Along came a man with an Australian hat, 582 00:35:07,843 --> 00:35:09,194 with a hand gun, 583 00:35:10,283 --> 00:35:12,803 he yelled in Arabic: "Get up! Get up!" 584 00:35:12,883 --> 00:35:14,203 They got up. 585 00:35:14,483 --> 00:35:17,843 He went near them and looked. 586 00:35:18,083 --> 00:35:19,803 He took a step back, drew his gun - 587 00:35:19,963 --> 00:35:22,323 bang, bang, bang, bang, he killed them all. 588 00:35:23,043 --> 00:35:24,923 I was horrified. 589 00:35:25,443 --> 00:35:28,243 In cold blood, yes? 590 00:35:30,243 --> 00:35:36,683 I didn't ask him, I asked people who knew: "Why did he do it?" 591 00:35:37,203 --> 00:35:39,386 "You have no idea how many Jews these 592 00:35:39,398 --> 00:35:41,363 "people killed, you have no idea." 593 00:35:41,603 --> 00:35:42,963 And that was it. 594 00:35:42,988 --> 00:35:45,511 (unsettling music) 595 00:35:47,203 --> 00:35:48,323 Were you mad at him? 596 00:35:48,403 --> 00:35:49,643 No, of course not. 597 00:35:49,723 --> 00:35:52,683 I just asked why, that's all, no more than that. 598 00:35:53,123 --> 00:35:54,723 I didn't care. 599 00:35:56,856 --> 00:35:57,871 (baby cries) 600 00:35:57,896 --> 00:35:59,106 (water sloshes) 601 00:36:02,843 --> 00:36:07,283 Tell me something, when you saw people being shot, 602 00:36:07,443 --> 00:36:09,412 did you see other soldiers around? 603 00:36:09,437 --> 00:36:10,763 What did the soldiers do? 604 00:36:10,978 --> 00:36:14,083 {\an8}Twice I saw they put them against the wall, 605 00:36:14,443 --> 00:36:16,563 {\an8}bang, they killed them. 606 00:36:16,643 --> 00:36:20,866 {\an8}My question is, when they shot, were all 607 00:36:20,878 --> 00:36:24,803 {\an8}the soldiers pleased or did anyone... 608 00:36:24,883 --> 00:36:27,661 {\an8}Of course. If you don't want someone to 609 00:36:27,673 --> 00:36:30,883 {\an8}kill, you won't let them, they all wanted it. 610 00:36:30,963 --> 00:36:32,658 {\an8}They all wanted it... 611 00:36:32,670 --> 00:36:36,163 Sure, the senior officers wanted it, sure. 612 00:36:36,188 --> 00:36:39,178 - Yes. - Yes. They killed many people. 613 00:36:39,203 --> 00:36:44,483 They removed them from their homes in their pajamas. 614 00:36:45,083 --> 00:36:50,363 They took them like cows in front of them and killed them. 615 00:36:54,803 --> 00:36:57,243 That's where I saw 616 00:36:58,763 --> 00:37:04,923 about 20 to 25 men were put up against the wall 617 00:37:05,363 --> 00:37:07,763 and between them... - Along the walls? 618 00:37:07,883 --> 00:37:10,083 They put one next to the other. 619 00:37:10,163 --> 00:37:13,123 We heard the gunfire and I saw them falling. 620 00:37:13,523 --> 00:37:17,778 and one of them called: "Mother, mother," 621 00:37:17,803 --> 00:37:22,123 so the mother of this young man, 622 00:37:22,283 --> 00:37:26,323 she pounced on him 623 00:37:26,403 --> 00:37:29,603 and this soldier shot her too. 624 00:37:29,683 --> 00:37:31,843 So that was the only woman they shot? 625 00:37:31,868 --> 00:37:34,323 - Three women. - Ah, three. 626 00:37:36,843 --> 00:37:39,443 There seem to have been three forms of killing. 627 00:37:39,923 --> 00:37:42,857 Two that occurred on the beach and 628 00:37:42,869 --> 00:37:45,563 at the same time in the houses, 629 00:37:45,803 --> 00:37:50,843 and a third form, that was perhaps the most terrible, 630 00:37:51,043 --> 00:37:53,691 and that's what happened on the other 631 00:37:53,703 --> 00:37:56,643 side of the village next to the cemetery. 632 00:37:56,923 --> 00:38:00,843 The guys shot them, struck them and... 633 00:38:01,363 --> 00:38:05,363 {\an8}I even remember guys that killed. But that I don't... 634 00:38:05,763 --> 00:38:07,203 {\an8}there were guys... 635 00:38:07,323 --> 00:38:09,474 {\an8}He'd say: "Dig me a hole" and he would 636 00:38:09,486 --> 00:38:11,483 {\an8}shoot him in the head and kill him. 637 00:38:11,603 --> 00:38:14,043 - Okay, but that's not... - We'll get to that, 638 00:38:14,123 --> 00:38:16,363 because we have to see what happened here, 639 00:38:16,443 --> 00:38:18,923 why they did it, but we'll get to that. 640 00:38:19,243 --> 00:38:22,923 Tantura... you know what? I don't... 641 00:38:23,563 --> 00:38:26,851 I encountered things that... Let's move on. 642 00:38:26,863 --> 00:38:27,963 Why? 643 00:38:28,403 --> 00:38:30,101 I disliked it so much back then. 644 00:38:30,113 --> 00:38:32,022 - Okay. - I don't like it to this day. 645 00:38:32,034 --> 00:38:33,563 - No problem. - I want to forget it. 646 00:38:33,643 --> 00:38:36,523 But if you didn't like it, it's even more of a sign... 647 00:38:36,603 --> 00:38:41,883 Look, the images engraved in my memory, till this date, 648 00:38:41,963 --> 00:38:45,043 are the men in the cemetery in the evening. 649 00:38:45,563 --> 00:38:50,603 Listen, I saw many people getting killed around the world, 650 00:38:50,683 --> 00:38:53,483 and I saw there people dying. 651 00:38:53,563 --> 00:38:56,683 I saw and I moved aside. That's all. 652 00:38:57,123 --> 00:38:59,443 Leave me alone with this. Enough. I'm done with it. 653 00:38:59,523 --> 00:39:02,083 It seems that it's engraved down to the bone. 654 00:39:02,323 --> 00:39:04,603 Yes. Even things I haven't mentioned. 655 00:39:04,683 --> 00:39:08,283 For instance, did you see them being lined up in rows? 656 00:39:08,363 --> 00:39:11,603 Did you see them digging? 657 00:39:11,923 --> 00:39:14,243 These are things that... 658 00:39:14,403 --> 00:39:18,123 No, I'm trying to sidestep the subject... 659 00:39:18,203 --> 00:39:20,883 I'm not talking about that. 660 00:39:20,963 --> 00:39:22,764 I'm talking about the aftermath that 661 00:39:22,776 --> 00:39:24,443 I saw. How? What? Leave me alone. 662 00:39:24,523 --> 00:39:28,683 Listen, I hear people confessing, 663 00:39:29,363 --> 00:39:31,563 but do you think it's true? 664 00:39:31,763 --> 00:39:34,851 Shlomo Ambar is a lieutenant colonel, maybe even a colonel. 665 00:39:35,563 --> 00:39:40,283 But how does he dare to say something... 666 00:39:41,163 --> 00:39:44,203 Well, he's strong, he's strong. 667 00:39:45,483 --> 00:39:47,843 He needs to be a little responsible 668 00:39:48,283 --> 00:39:50,203 for his words, 669 00:39:50,683 --> 00:39:53,323 which are painful to both sides: 670 00:39:53,563 --> 00:39:58,483 To the soldiers and also to the other side that was hurt. 671 00:40:02,523 --> 00:40:03,803 I was born in Tantura. 672 00:40:05,763 --> 00:40:10,323 How old were you when Tantura was destroyed? 673 00:40:10,683 --> 00:40:13,163 Eighteen or 20. 674 00:40:15,683 --> 00:40:17,616 I remember everything that happened in Tantura. 675 00:40:17,628 --> 00:40:19,523 I haven't forgotten a thing. 676 00:40:20,603 --> 00:40:25,403 They put the children and women in a house owned by my uncle, 677 00:40:25,683 --> 00:40:28,214 when they started shooting, 678 00:40:28,226 --> 00:40:30,923 what could my uncle do? Nothing, right? 679 00:40:34,003 --> 00:40:36,584 Did you see your brothers being killed? 680 00:40:37,723 --> 00:40:41,243 How would I see? There was gunfire, how would I see? 681 00:40:41,268 --> 00:40:42,523 Tell me how. 682 00:40:42,603 --> 00:40:45,243 When you hear gunfire, you're scared to death, no? 683 00:40:45,843 --> 00:40:47,963 You run, right? 684 00:40:48,243 --> 00:40:51,643 I snuck in among the people that left. 685 00:40:52,323 --> 00:40:55,323 I saw people running, so I ran with them. 686 00:40:55,923 --> 00:40:57,763 I didn't understand what was going on. 687 00:40:58,083 --> 00:41:02,013 If I had, I wouldn't have run. 688 00:41:04,843 --> 00:41:08,483 I'm telling you, there's no tragedy comparable with Tantura. 689 00:41:11,512 --> 00:41:12,871 (coughs) 690 00:41:16,323 --> 00:41:21,003 By the way, in Tantura our men were killed by Arab fire, 691 00:41:21,363 --> 00:41:24,643 their Jeep got stuck in the mud. 692 00:41:25,083 --> 00:41:28,403 They shot them and tortured them. 693 00:41:28,989 --> 00:41:30,018 What do you mean? 694 00:41:30,043 --> 00:41:31,843 They slaughtered them. 695 00:41:31,963 --> 00:41:35,523 The guys in the Jeep thought it was all over. 696 00:41:35,603 --> 00:41:37,883 We found them in an awful state. 697 00:41:38,323 --> 00:41:39,439 An awful state. 698 00:41:39,464 --> 00:41:42,083 They were tortured, they took their genitals 699 00:41:42,163 --> 00:41:43,563 and stuck them in their mouths. 700 00:41:45,132 --> 00:41:47,507 (somber music) 701 00:41:50,323 --> 00:41:52,203 That's something you never forget. 702 00:41:52,323 --> 00:41:56,283 The first three to four months I was a murderer. 703 00:41:56,563 --> 00:41:57,683 What does that mean? 704 00:41:57,803 --> 00:41:59,683 I didn't take captives. 705 00:42:00,563 --> 00:42:04,003 During battle, if someone raised hands, 706 00:42:04,163 --> 00:42:05,243 I didn't take captives. 707 00:42:05,803 --> 00:42:11,003 It shocked me so badly that I couldn't let it go. 708 00:42:11,323 --> 00:42:16,643 If a squad of, you know, would stand with their hands up, 709 00:42:16,763 --> 00:42:19,243 on that same day, if I saw it, 710 00:42:19,323 --> 00:42:21,283 I would have shot them all down. 711 00:42:21,563 --> 00:42:24,123 How many people do you think you killed this way? 712 00:42:25,563 --> 00:42:27,763 I didn't count. 713 00:42:28,523 --> 00:42:30,363 I can't really know. 714 00:42:30,603 --> 00:42:35,723 I had a machine gun with 250 bullets. 715 00:42:36,363 --> 00:42:39,363 Look, I shot, I fought along with everyone. 716 00:42:39,803 --> 00:42:41,389 I can't count. 717 00:42:44,363 --> 00:42:47,084 One guy went ballistic, 718 00:42:48,203 --> 00:42:49,963 Moshe Barbalat was his name. 719 00:42:50,403 --> 00:42:53,683 We attended elementary school together in Bnei Brak, 720 00:42:53,963 --> 00:42:57,163 He took a grenade and threw it into a room 721 00:42:57,403 --> 00:43:02,403 and many Arabs were injured or killed. 722 00:43:04,763 --> 00:43:06,679 You're telling me about the grenade... 723 00:43:08,203 --> 00:43:10,283 If I tell you the name, will you remember it? 724 00:43:10,363 --> 00:43:12,443 I'll say it... Barbalat. 725 00:43:15,643 --> 00:43:17,123 It's Moishe Barbalat. 726 00:43:19,443 --> 00:43:21,363 Moishele Barbalat? 727 00:43:21,563 --> 00:43:25,323 Ehh... a rascal, but a fighter. 728 00:43:26,443 --> 00:43:28,923 There are all kinds of stories about him. 729 00:43:29,283 --> 00:43:31,603 Stories... yes, from back then. 730 00:43:32,243 --> 00:43:36,323 But... nothing special. 731 00:43:38,763 --> 00:43:41,243 In Tantura he did something else. 732 00:43:42,443 --> 00:43:46,963 He grabbed a woman, young and good looking, 733 00:43:47,363 --> 00:43:48,963 went into a house, 734 00:43:49,123 --> 00:43:53,003 prepared a bedroom and wanted to fuck her. 735 00:43:53,403 --> 00:43:56,243 Then he was caught, they beat him and threw him out. 736 00:43:56,443 --> 00:43:58,133 But I don't remember a grenade. 737 00:43:58,803 --> 00:44:01,656 He wanted to rape a woman, that's true. 738 00:44:01,681 --> 00:44:02,698 (tape player clicks) 739 00:44:02,723 --> 00:44:08,003 This guy, I remember it well, he took a girl, 740 00:44:08,163 --> 00:44:10,163 a pretty girl, 741 00:44:10,188 --> 00:44:14,388 from the pile of people where we sat near the big house, 742 00:44:14,523 --> 00:44:17,817 they wanted to rape her there. 743 00:44:18,483 --> 00:44:22,363 So her uncle stood up and said: "I want the girl." 744 00:44:22,483 --> 00:44:25,083 So one guy shot him on the spot. 745 00:44:27,123 --> 00:44:31,923 The girl came back half dead, like a rag. 746 00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:33,921 (tape player clicks) (dramatic music) 747 00:44:40,985 --> 00:44:44,363 "When the regiment marches, the enemy kneels at its feet. 748 00:44:45,563 --> 00:44:48,603 "Its villages fall into the hands of our fellows, 749 00:44:48,923 --> 00:44:54,083 "Kakun and Tantura, the regiment will act vigorously 750 00:44:54,243 --> 00:44:57,083 "to destroy the enemy like vermin." 751 00:44:58,123 --> 00:45:00,303 People went wild in Tantura. It was awful. 752 00:45:00,843 --> 00:45:05,163 Tantura was a rich village, beautiful houses, 753 00:45:06,123 --> 00:45:08,963 they lived there like Europeans, you know? 754 00:45:09,123 --> 00:45:10,938 And the women were beautifully 755 00:45:10,950 --> 00:45:13,203 dressed, this village was really... 756 00:45:14,243 --> 00:45:16,271 One guy raped there a sixteen-year-old 757 00:45:16,283 --> 00:45:18,323 girl or something of the sort. 758 00:45:18,843 --> 00:45:21,523 You understand? But this is very ugly. 759 00:45:21,603 --> 00:45:24,643 There was one guy, he passed away, he was a savage. 760 00:45:24,843 --> 00:45:26,643 He just took them 761 00:45:27,443 --> 00:45:30,123 and murdered them in the enclosures. 762 00:45:30,963 --> 00:45:33,166 In the enclosures. They were in enclosures, 763 00:45:34,163 --> 00:45:36,483 you know, surrounded by barbed wire. 764 00:45:36,563 --> 00:45:38,105 All the men were rounded up. 765 00:45:38,883 --> 00:45:41,363 They were all sitting on the ground, 766 00:45:41,603 --> 00:45:46,283 and someone comes and takes a machine gun and starts... 767 00:45:46,363 --> 00:45:48,763 and then reloaded the cartridge, 768 00:45:48,843 --> 00:45:50,449 what do you think? 769 00:45:51,019 --> 00:45:53,123 But we weren't like that 770 00:45:53,243 --> 00:45:56,643 He was exceptional, that guy and what he did. 771 00:45:57,843 --> 00:45:59,523 And it was hushed. 772 00:45:59,603 --> 00:46:02,142 And some guys took flamethrowers and 773 00:46:02,154 --> 00:46:04,843 ran after people and incinerated them. 774 00:46:05,083 --> 00:46:06,323 It was horrifying. 775 00:46:06,403 --> 00:46:08,210 It's forbidden to tell, 776 00:46:08,235 --> 00:46:10,116 I'm not going to talk about it... because... 777 00:46:10,963 --> 00:46:14,043 it could cause a huge scandal. 778 00:46:14,323 --> 00:46:17,083 I don't want to talk about it... That's it. 779 00:46:17,403 --> 00:46:20,003 But it happened, what can you do? It happened. 780 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,347 (music continues) 781 00:46:29,798 --> 00:46:30,798 (laughs) 782 00:46:31,763 --> 00:46:34,699 He's riding the donkey. I had a donkey there too. 783 00:46:39,443 --> 00:46:40,803 They weren't with me. 784 00:46:41,363 --> 00:46:43,003 No, they weren't with me. 785 00:46:43,083 --> 00:46:45,203 - But you remember those donkeys? - Yes, yes. 786 00:46:50,083 --> 00:46:52,243 There were many Arab casualties 787 00:46:52,363 --> 00:46:55,123 and they were scattered, like garbage. 788 00:46:55,523 --> 00:46:59,003 No consideration, no nothing. 789 00:46:59,403 --> 00:47:03,283 On the roads, the paths, between the houses, 790 00:47:03,683 --> 00:47:05,443 they were scattered everywhere. 791 00:47:05,923 --> 00:47:08,123 I don't even remember if they were buried or not, 792 00:47:08,203 --> 00:47:10,163 but I know they were taken away. 793 00:47:10,283 --> 00:47:14,123 What about the burial? Who dealt with it? 794 00:47:14,243 --> 00:47:17,003 Of the Arabs? 795 00:47:18,083 --> 00:47:19,563 We didn't wait around for it. 796 00:47:19,803 --> 00:47:22,443 They gathered them and we didn't wait around. 797 00:47:22,763 --> 00:47:27,123 A cart with two mules took all their corpses 798 00:47:27,203 --> 00:47:30,883 and brought them to the cemetery. 799 00:47:30,963 --> 00:47:32,523 Do you remember them being buried there? 800 00:47:32,683 --> 00:47:34,763 - No, of course not. I didn't go. - They dug...? 801 00:47:34,843 --> 00:47:37,683 No, no, it's of no interest. 802 00:47:37,757 --> 00:47:38,865 (tape player clicks) (music stops) 803 00:47:40,843 --> 00:47:43,443 Let's go back to the scene, and we'll end there. 804 00:47:43,523 --> 00:47:46,403 The scene where everyone was gathered 805 00:47:46,483 --> 00:47:50,883 by the house... the factory? 806 00:47:52,563 --> 00:47:55,643 The men were no longer there. 807 00:47:56,123 --> 00:47:57,723 - When the battle was over. - Yes? 808 00:47:57,803 --> 00:48:00,155 After they took the men, the women, 809 00:48:00,167 --> 00:48:02,203 children and elderly remained. 810 00:48:02,283 --> 00:48:04,443 How much longer did they remain in the village? 811 00:48:04,523 --> 00:48:06,523 About a day or two. 812 00:48:06,883 --> 00:48:09,043 With all the bodies, and all the...? 813 00:48:09,123 --> 00:48:11,926 The bodies -- two days later I brought 814 00:48:11,938 --> 00:48:14,714 people from Fureidis and they buried them. 815 00:48:16,763 --> 00:48:20,448 So the families remained in the village 816 00:48:20,460 --> 00:48:23,603 with the bodies scattered around? 817 00:48:23,683 --> 00:48:25,212 With all the bodies, yes. 818 00:48:27,085 --> 00:48:28,085 (tape player clicks) 819 00:48:28,283 --> 00:48:32,323 I was born in Tantura in 1935. 820 00:48:34,883 --> 00:48:38,323 We were born in Tantura and we stayed until 1948. 821 00:48:39,043 --> 00:48:42,075 They occupied the village and that was it. 822 00:48:42,763 --> 00:48:48,483 They brought us, women and children, to the mosque, 823 00:48:48,563 --> 00:48:52,683 and arrested the men that were still alive. 824 00:48:52,763 --> 00:48:55,923 The men that were murdered, they gathered their bodies 825 00:48:56,083 --> 00:49:01,443 and piled them up on a cart. 826 00:49:02,208 --> 00:49:07,803 I happened to look and I saw the bodies of my father and brother 827 00:49:07,883 --> 00:49:10,443 among the other bodies. 828 00:49:11,123 --> 00:49:12,532 They were in a pile by the pit. 829 00:49:13,923 --> 00:49:15,963 I asked a man who was standing there, 830 00:49:16,043 --> 00:49:18,403 he said they're going to bury them in the pit. 831 00:49:18,483 --> 00:49:20,923 I asked, "They want to bury them all in one pit?" 832 00:49:21,243 --> 00:49:23,763 He said, "At least they're being buried, 833 00:49:23,843 --> 00:49:27,083 "so the animals and birds won't eat them." 834 00:49:27,501 --> 00:49:29,236 (solemn piano chords) 835 00:49:30,403 --> 00:49:31,763 - Hello, Mr. Sokoler. - Hello. 836 00:49:32,395 --> 00:49:34,483 - Can I call you Motl? - Yes. 837 00:49:34,787 --> 00:49:35,818 - Shall we begin? - Yes. 838 00:49:35,843 --> 00:49:40,003 On Saturday two guys said to me, "You have to join us." 839 00:49:40,203 --> 00:49:41,243 I asked, "Why?" 840 00:49:41,323 --> 00:49:44,643 They said, "We have to go to Tantura tonight." 841 00:49:45,203 --> 00:49:49,437 We were there for a few days, then we had to bury the dead. 842 00:49:49,812 --> 00:49:53,323 So we buried them... I took workers from Fureidis, 843 00:49:53,403 --> 00:49:56,003 we buried them and that was it. 844 00:49:56,603 --> 00:49:58,083 How many were killed? 845 00:49:58,563 --> 00:50:01,643 Some 270, 280. I buried them. 846 00:50:03,283 --> 00:50:05,006 I came back two days later and 847 00:50:05,018 --> 00:50:07,043 there was a hill like a mountain. 848 00:50:07,163 --> 00:50:08,283 They inflated, 849 00:50:08,363 --> 00:50:11,123 and then it dropped. 850 00:50:12,919 --> 00:50:14,794 (music builds) 851 00:50:19,914 --> 00:50:22,274 He's totally nuts, this Sokoler. 852 00:50:23,034 --> 00:50:25,762 You know how many auto-suggestions, 853 00:50:25,787 --> 00:50:30,474 inventions, imaginary fictions 854 00:50:30,954 --> 00:50:33,314 he collected throughout these 50 years? 855 00:50:34,994 --> 00:50:38,190 The issue is, what is the relative 856 00:50:38,202 --> 00:50:41,594 value of different kinds of sources. 857 00:50:42,594 --> 00:50:46,234 I am considered a radical on this issue, 858 00:50:46,754 --> 00:50:48,754 I don't believe witnesses. 859 00:50:49,634 --> 00:50:56,114 And Teddy's thesis was... about 90% or so 860 00:50:56,554 --> 00:50:58,354 based on oral evidence. 861 00:50:59,114 --> 00:51:02,394 Which is good for folklore, but not for history. 862 00:51:03,034 --> 00:51:10,594 Teddy, technically, did all the evils in taking the evidence. 863 00:51:10,714 --> 00:51:15,034 He mixed up what he was told, what he wrote in his paper, 864 00:51:15,114 --> 00:51:16,914 what he was thinking 865 00:51:16,994 --> 00:51:19,994 and it's all a salad, you cannot differentiate them. 866 00:51:20,941 --> 00:51:23,101 But you never listened to the actual audio tapes 867 00:51:23,126 --> 00:51:24,667 - of the Hebrew... - No, no. 868 00:51:26,954 --> 00:51:30,394 The whole work was error after error. 869 00:51:31,194 --> 00:51:36,514 I think that a student that wrote such a lousy, sloppy work 870 00:51:36,914 --> 00:51:39,799 should be thrown out of the university, 871 00:51:39,811 --> 00:51:42,274 he's not entitled to his defense. 872 00:51:43,119 --> 00:51:45,111 (tense music) 873 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,001 (music continues) 874 00:52:36,883 --> 00:52:38,323 The apology: 875 00:52:38,563 --> 00:52:40,323 "I wish to clarify 876 00:52:40,403 --> 00:52:43,203 "that after reexamining matters, 877 00:52:43,283 --> 00:52:45,843 "it is clear to me beyond any doubt 878 00:52:46,003 --> 00:52:47,883 "that there is no basis for the claim 879 00:52:47,963 --> 00:52:50,111 "that people were killed in Tantura 880 00:52:50,123 --> 00:52:52,283 "after the surrender of the village. 881 00:52:52,363 --> 00:52:54,083 "I wish to clarify 882 00:52:54,163 --> 00:52:59,243 "that the things I wrote were apparently misunderstood 883 00:52:59,323 --> 00:53:03,163 "and I retract any conclusion I drew in the research 884 00:53:03,323 --> 00:53:06,123 "with regard to the occurrence of the massacre 885 00:53:06,203 --> 00:53:10,803 "and the killing of defenseless and unarmed people. 886 00:53:10,923 --> 00:53:13,043 "Signed, Teddy Katz." 887 00:53:17,018 --> 00:53:19,563 I made all kinds of mistakes in my life, 888 00:53:19,723 --> 00:53:20,763 but apparently 889 00:53:21,403 --> 00:53:25,963 the biggest mistake I ever made was releasing that apology. 890 00:53:27,085 --> 00:53:30,763 And, of course, I regret that to this day. 891 00:53:31,123 --> 00:53:32,323 Very much. 892 00:53:33,443 --> 00:53:35,483 As I later found out, 893 00:53:35,563 --> 00:53:39,524 there had been a meeting at attorney Erdenist's office 894 00:53:39,789 --> 00:53:43,043 with Teddy Katz, his wife, I think, other lawyers, 895 00:53:43,123 --> 00:53:46,149 the lawyer who initially represented him, Atlas. 896 00:53:46,174 --> 00:53:48,123 Who was absent? I was absent. 897 00:53:48,513 --> 00:53:52,403 They came to someone whom they knew I was defending, 898 00:53:52,483 --> 00:53:54,843 that I was his lawyer, without me, 899 00:53:54,923 --> 00:53:57,609 they forbade him from telling me 900 00:53:57,621 --> 00:54:00,641 to come to that nighttime meeting. 901 00:54:00,763 --> 00:54:05,123 How can you define it other than taking someone hostage? 902 00:54:05,603 --> 00:54:07,403 It's disgraceful. 903 00:54:07,523 --> 00:54:11,403 It disgraces and shames the Alexandroni Brigade. 904 00:54:11,483 --> 00:54:15,283 You want to defend your name, is that how you address it? 905 00:54:16,295 --> 00:54:17,826 (music continues) 906 00:54:19,923 --> 00:54:24,883 After the lawsuit was dropped, he told me, "Help me, 907 00:54:25,043 --> 00:54:27,963 "I can't live with this, cancel the agreement." 908 00:54:28,283 --> 00:54:30,203 And we asked to revoke the agreement, 909 00:54:30,283 --> 00:54:32,283 and the agreement could have been revoked, 910 00:54:32,363 --> 00:54:35,763 but the judge refused. We filed an appeal to the Supreme Court, 911 00:54:35,883 --> 00:54:37,963 which was also dismissed, 912 00:54:38,043 --> 00:54:42,203 and ultimately it was Teddy Katz versus a whole group 913 00:54:42,283 --> 00:54:44,563 who all wanted to bury it. 914 00:54:44,723 --> 00:54:46,323 To bury this trial, 915 00:54:46,498 --> 00:54:49,588 and perhaps even bury Teddy Katz along with the trial. 916 00:54:50,991 --> 00:54:52,381 (music softens) 917 00:54:55,563 --> 00:54:58,763 The university should have told the court, 918 00:54:58,843 --> 00:55:03,523 "With all due respect, this matter is an academic debate." 919 00:55:03,843 --> 00:55:06,668 But to go so far as removing 920 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,923 Teddy Katz's thesis from the library shelves? 921 00:55:10,123 --> 00:55:13,035 On the library's shelves, though vastly 922 00:55:13,047 --> 00:55:16,483 different, there's also Hitler's "Mein Kampf," 923 00:55:16,563 --> 00:55:18,963 sitting there on those shelves. 924 00:55:19,083 --> 00:55:21,443 All that remained was to burn it. 925 00:55:22,403 --> 00:55:24,763 When the university takes sides 926 00:55:24,775 --> 00:55:27,443 supporting the plaintiffs at court, 927 00:55:27,523 --> 00:55:30,687 and doesn't unequivocally support the 928 00:55:30,699 --> 00:55:34,043 author of the thesis and his instructor, 929 00:55:34,163 --> 00:55:37,971 this constitutes a deviation from the 930 00:55:37,983 --> 00:55:41,803 most fundamental academic principals. 931 00:55:42,403 --> 00:55:44,339 And this is in fact is what the 932 00:55:44,351 --> 00:55:46,483 university did, this was the goal: 933 00:55:46,643 --> 00:55:52,003 To silence him as he'd expressed himself in his work. 934 00:55:52,123 --> 00:55:56,003 And that was the price he paid. 935 00:55:56,843 --> 00:56:01,476 Suddenly he became an "Israel-hater," 936 00:56:02,443 --> 00:56:06,163 an unwanted man in this country, a troublemaker. 937 00:56:07,083 --> 00:56:09,484 It was an awful and terrible time. 938 00:56:12,403 --> 00:56:16,363 And then the threats started on the phone. 939 00:56:16,443 --> 00:56:20,683 The kids started getting phone calls about... 940 00:56:21,403 --> 00:56:22,963 their father. 941 00:56:23,483 --> 00:56:26,283 "We'll destroy you, we'll show you." 942 00:56:26,308 --> 00:56:27,923 "Who are you? What are you?" 943 00:56:28,523 --> 00:56:30,003 It was scary. 944 00:56:30,443 --> 00:56:33,123 You feel like the country is against you. 945 00:56:36,403 --> 00:56:39,154 Look, I think that societies don't like 946 00:56:39,166 --> 00:56:42,483 dealing with the darker sides of their history. 947 00:56:42,914 --> 00:56:44,732 We can't imagine that a fourth grade 948 00:56:44,744 --> 00:56:47,043 teacher enters the classroom and says, 949 00:56:47,123 --> 00:56:49,060 "Hello, children, we're a nation who 950 00:56:49,072 --> 00:56:51,443 "committed murder or the transfer of a population 951 00:56:51,523 --> 00:56:53,203 "in order to establish the State." 952 00:56:53,283 --> 00:56:55,124 Every public tells itself a story 953 00:56:55,136 --> 00:56:57,043 justifying itself and its conduct, 954 00:56:57,123 --> 00:57:01,963 and that all the wrong, negative things we did, 955 00:57:02,163 --> 00:57:04,803 we did because it was forced on us, not because we wanted to. 956 00:57:04,883 --> 00:57:06,656 That's why people get annoyed when 957 00:57:06,668 --> 00:57:08,403 you tell them anything different. 958 00:57:10,123 --> 00:57:12,043 War has everything. 959 00:57:12,123 --> 00:57:17,123 Take the Americans for example, what did they do in Vietnam? 960 00:57:17,683 --> 00:57:20,923 They threw prisoners from helicopters. 961 00:57:22,803 --> 00:57:26,523 You can't say this to the Americans. 962 00:57:27,243 --> 00:57:30,141 You won't say it, America wouldn't 963 00:57:30,153 --> 00:57:33,563 tolerate you saying something like that. 964 00:57:35,563 --> 00:57:41,123 In my opinion, we are a pure nation. 965 00:57:41,363 --> 00:57:42,883 Believe me, we're pure. 966 00:57:43,043 --> 00:57:45,283 We were so good. 967 00:57:45,563 --> 00:57:47,683 So humane. 968 00:57:49,243 --> 00:57:51,563 And we had high morals. 969 00:57:51,843 --> 00:57:55,483 Many people who contacted us said, 970 00:57:56,003 --> 00:58:00,683 "Listen, we know it happened, but why say it? 971 00:58:01,363 --> 00:58:03,243 "Why talk about it? 972 00:58:04,283 --> 00:58:07,043 "It's unnecessary. Okay, it happened." 973 00:58:08,603 --> 00:58:13,003 "You're destroying the country's wonderful reputation." 974 00:58:13,523 --> 00:58:15,683 Many people said that. 975 00:58:17,803 --> 00:58:21,513 Had I testified there, that guy would have received his degree. 976 00:58:22,803 --> 00:58:23,923 Do you understand? 977 00:58:24,283 --> 00:58:25,763 He would have received his degree. 978 00:58:25,883 --> 00:58:26,883 But... 979 00:58:27,003 --> 00:58:28,603 That guy was silenced. 980 00:58:28,683 --> 00:58:30,723 - His name is Teddy. - Teddy, yes. 981 00:58:30,843 --> 00:58:32,923 He was silenced. Yes, he was silenced. 982 00:58:33,003 --> 00:58:34,523 He lost in this case. 983 00:58:35,123 --> 00:58:40,363 But he wrote something that he didn't get backing for. 984 00:58:40,643 --> 00:58:41,803 But he told the truth. 985 00:58:41,883 --> 00:58:46,003 He told the truth, yes. He told the truth. 986 00:58:46,523 --> 00:58:48,283 But the guys denied all of it, 987 00:58:48,363 --> 00:58:51,243 and they interviewed Henio, they interviewed me. 988 00:58:51,323 --> 00:58:52,643 They interviewed other people. 989 00:58:52,763 --> 00:58:54,883 We didn't know, we didn't hear. 990 00:58:54,963 --> 00:58:56,003 But everyone knew? 991 00:58:56,083 --> 00:58:57,683 Of course everyone knew. 992 00:58:57,763 --> 00:58:59,283 Everyone knew. 993 00:59:04,354 --> 00:59:09,074 I think the self-image of Israel as a moral society 994 00:59:09,154 --> 00:59:11,794 is something I haven't seen anywhere else in the world. 995 00:59:11,914 --> 00:59:14,474 How important it is to be exceptional. 996 00:59:14,554 --> 00:59:16,154 We are the Chosen People. 997 00:59:16,234 --> 00:59:19,234 This is part of the Israeli self-identification 998 00:59:19,314 --> 00:59:21,834 as a very superior moral people, 999 00:59:21,914 --> 00:59:25,794 and I grew up on this... "The most moral army in the world." 1000 00:59:25,914 --> 00:59:29,205 And I think it's very hard for Israelis 1001 00:59:29,217 --> 00:59:32,354 to admit that they commit war crimes. 1002 00:59:32,994 --> 00:59:38,794 Because, basically, the project of Zionism has a problem. 1003 00:59:40,114 --> 00:59:41,874 It's a tragedy in a sense. 1004 00:59:42,274 --> 00:59:44,314 Jews had to escape from Europe 1005 00:59:44,394 --> 00:59:46,714 to find a safe haven, 1006 00:59:46,914 --> 00:59:49,914 but you cannot create a safe haven by 1007 00:59:49,925 --> 00:59:52,914 creating a catastrophe for other people. 1008 00:59:54,968 --> 00:59:56,976 (heavy music) 1009 01:00:33,683 --> 01:00:38,083 Every village that fought us, we fought. 1010 01:00:38,763 --> 01:00:43,723 All along the road to Haifa, all the villages fought us. 1011 01:00:43,923 --> 01:00:46,926 So the goal in all these villages 1012 01:00:46,938 --> 01:00:50,043 was to fight them so they'd leave. 1013 01:00:50,363 --> 01:00:52,843 So they fled without fighting. 1014 01:00:53,723 --> 01:00:56,643 They fled, no fighting, no nothing. 1015 01:00:57,738 --> 01:01:01,144 When we entered the villages the pita bread was still warm. 1016 01:01:01,803 --> 01:01:03,523 Did we drive them out? 1017 01:01:03,603 --> 01:01:05,643 We fought, we didn't drive anyone out. 1018 01:01:05,723 --> 01:01:07,585 Whoever fled, fled. 1019 01:01:12,655 --> 01:01:13,881 (tape player clicks) 1020 01:01:15,243 --> 01:01:17,142 In the operation to take the Galilee, 1021 01:01:17,154 --> 01:01:18,763 that was conducted a bit later, 1022 01:01:18,788 --> 01:01:20,323 there were two Arab villages, 1023 01:01:20,348 --> 01:01:22,523 I don't remember which was Druze and which was Arab, 1024 01:01:22,603 --> 01:01:24,203 Nahf and Sajur. 1025 01:01:24,283 --> 01:01:29,003 One we ravaged, and the other we didn't touch, 1026 01:01:29,083 --> 01:01:31,443 we didn't take a single hair off their heads. 1027 01:01:31,923 --> 01:01:33,643 What do you mean by "ravaged?" 1028 01:01:33,963 --> 01:01:35,323 Leave it. 1029 01:01:35,883 --> 01:01:37,243 Leave it? 1030 01:01:37,443 --> 01:01:40,323 {\an8}It was a time when Ben Gurion said 1031 01:01:40,403 --> 01:01:44,483 {\an8}we have to do everything so that Arabs flee the Galilee. 1032 01:01:45,123 --> 01:01:48,843 {\an8}So we beat them up, and burned, and did all kinds of things 1033 01:01:48,923 --> 01:01:50,803 to get them to flee. 1034 01:01:51,443 --> 01:01:54,111 Now, everyone and their morals, 1035 01:01:54,123 --> 01:01:56,803 and everyone and their interpretations. 1036 01:01:57,563 --> 01:02:02,243 In most of the battles I focused on taking over Arab villages. 1037 01:02:02,363 --> 01:02:04,883 There was always an order -- and it came from Ben Gurion -- 1038 01:02:04,963 --> 01:02:06,843 "Drive the people out." 1039 01:02:07,163 --> 01:02:09,803 And that's it, so they were driven out. 1040 01:02:10,643 --> 01:02:15,763 Lod, Ramle, Tantura, they were driven out. 1041 01:02:16,003 --> 01:02:20,043 Obviously people did it. Someone did the job. 1042 01:02:20,443 --> 01:02:26,950 We'd arrive at a village, it became standard, automatic. 1043 01:02:27,163 --> 01:02:30,773 The buses would come and take the people away. 1044 01:02:32,963 --> 01:02:36,403 When we occupied a place, tractors razed the place. 1045 01:02:36,843 --> 01:02:37,963 Razed it. 1046 01:02:38,083 --> 01:02:40,003 Nothing remained of the village. 1047 01:02:40,123 --> 01:02:42,490 Why? They didn't want anyone to return, 1048 01:02:42,502 --> 01:02:44,643 or to leave any trace of the place. 1049 01:02:45,342 --> 01:02:47,420 (film rolls) (music continues softly) 1050 01:02:52,794 --> 01:02:55,514 Ethnic cleansing, which is what happened here, 1051 01:02:55,594 --> 01:02:57,394 is exactly executed like that. 1052 01:02:57,474 --> 01:03:02,714 There's no big program. There's no big command from Ben Gurion. 1053 01:03:02,874 --> 01:03:06,154 You just make sure that people understand that 1054 01:03:06,234 --> 01:03:09,474 the less Arabs would be in what becomes a Jewish state, 1055 01:03:09,609 --> 01:03:10,674 the better. 1056 01:03:10,754 --> 01:03:12,894 You know, you don't get a manual book 1057 01:03:12,906 --> 01:03:15,394 of how to execute an ethnic... 1058 01:03:15,474 --> 01:03:18,834 there is not "The Dummy's Guide to an Ethnic Cleanser," 1059 01:03:18,914 --> 01:03:20,474 or, you know, how to do it. 1060 01:03:20,554 --> 01:03:24,101 If you can achieve it by intimidating 1061 01:03:24,113 --> 01:03:27,954 them two days before, by horror stories, 1062 01:03:28,474 --> 01:03:29,634 okay. 1063 01:03:29,794 --> 01:03:31,034 If that doesn't work, 1064 01:03:31,794 --> 01:03:34,914 and you shoot two, three of them and they leave, 1065 01:03:35,114 --> 01:03:36,160 very good. 1066 01:03:36,234 --> 01:03:38,394 And if this doesn't work, because they resist, 1067 01:03:38,834 --> 01:03:41,034 and you massacre, then you massacre. 1068 01:03:43,955 --> 01:03:45,783 (solemn music continues) 1069 01:03:46,003 --> 01:03:49,523 It's amazing that Ben Gurion understood so early on 1070 01:03:49,603 --> 01:03:52,802 that this issue of what happened to those 1071 01:03:52,814 --> 01:03:55,643 750-800,000 Palestinians in '48 1072 01:03:56,203 --> 01:03:58,968 would be perhaps the main issue that 1073 01:03:58,980 --> 01:04:01,683 would preoccupy the State of Israel 1074 01:04:01,763 --> 01:04:03,443 throughout all its years. 1075 01:04:04,123 --> 01:04:08,403 But in the late 50's he turns this into a state project. 1076 01:04:10,923 --> 01:04:13,563 He says, "I want a study written 1077 01:04:13,923 --> 01:04:17,003 "that will prove that the Arabs left on their own accord 1078 01:04:17,083 --> 01:04:20,403 "and weren't driven out by the Israeli Defense Forces." 1079 01:04:20,483 --> 01:04:23,708 I found correspondence related to the writing of the study. 1080 01:04:24,911 --> 01:04:27,022 One of the historians approached by 1081 01:04:27,034 --> 01:04:30,003 Ben Gurion to conduct the study wrote, 1082 01:04:30,083 --> 01:04:32,588 "You asked me to write a study proving that 1083 01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:35,003 "the Palestinians left of their own accord, 1084 01:04:35,083 --> 01:04:37,098 "following their leaders' command to do so." 1085 01:04:37,123 --> 01:04:40,196 There wasn't even an attempt to say, 1086 01:04:40,221 --> 01:04:43,616 "I wrote this study that shows X, Y or Z." No. 1087 01:04:44,803 --> 01:04:49,163 Ben Gurion demands that history be written 1088 01:04:49,243 --> 01:04:52,443 and that an allegedly certified narrative be created 1089 01:04:52,563 --> 01:04:55,252 that will show that the Palestinians 1090 01:04:55,264 --> 01:04:56,547 left of their own accord. 1091 01:04:59,563 --> 01:05:01,972 In 1988 we marked the 40th anniversary 1092 01:05:01,984 --> 01:05:03,723 of the War of Independence. 1093 01:05:03,803 --> 01:05:05,855 IDF archives were due to release the 1094 01:05:05,867 --> 01:05:08,043 historical documentation from the war. 1095 01:05:08,443 --> 01:05:10,500 People gathered in the archive and said, 1096 01:05:10,512 --> 01:05:12,683 "We can't release everything immediately." 1097 01:05:12,843 --> 01:05:15,043 Therefore they wrote a policy document 1098 01:05:15,123 --> 01:05:17,982 detailing criteria as to which historical 1099 01:05:17,994 --> 01:05:19,854 documentation we reveal and which we don't. 1100 01:05:21,083 --> 01:05:23,753 For example, the State decides it does not 1101 01:05:23,765 --> 01:05:26,323 want to release material that indicates: 1102 01:05:26,403 --> 01:05:28,043 "Deportation of Arabs" 1103 01:05:28,403 --> 01:05:31,243 or "The evacuation of communities and residents." 1104 01:05:31,643 --> 01:05:33,723 Or, and this is my favorite one, 1105 01:05:33,803 --> 01:05:35,562 "Violent behavior towards prisoners 1106 01:05:35,574 --> 01:05:37,808 "that violates the Geneva Convention." 1107 01:05:38,763 --> 01:05:41,030 Or, "Violent behavior towards the 1108 01:05:41,055 --> 01:05:43,536 "Arab population and acts of cruelty: 1109 01:05:43,603 --> 01:05:46,334 "killing, murder not in accordance with 1110 01:05:46,346 --> 01:05:49,363 "combat conditions, rape, robbery, looting -- 1111 01:05:49,603 --> 01:05:51,651 "material that may harm the IDF's image, 1112 01:05:51,663 --> 01:05:53,523 "[presenting it] as an occupying army 1113 01:05:53,603 --> 01:05:55,603 "devoid of moral standards." 1114 01:05:58,003 --> 01:05:59,683 What do we learn from this? 1115 01:06:00,083 --> 01:06:04,683 That the State of Israel wants to protect, in any possible way, 1116 01:06:04,763 --> 01:06:07,523 the founding myth of Israeliness 1117 01:06:07,723 --> 01:06:09,989 which is that we are the most moral 1118 01:06:10,001 --> 01:06:12,104 army and society in the world. 1119 01:06:12,354 --> 01:06:15,763 That's the DNA of the Zionist story. 1120 01:06:15,883 --> 01:06:19,123 So what we, the public, have when we go to the archives 1121 01:06:19,203 --> 01:06:20,963 is only material that's passed this filter, 1122 01:06:21,083 --> 01:06:23,683 meaning it's only material that proves there was no expulsion, 1123 01:06:23,763 --> 01:06:25,564 there was no population transfer, 1124 01:06:25,576 --> 01:06:27,603 there was no destruction of villages. 1125 01:06:27,683 --> 01:06:31,363 Now, it must be said, this story is a lie, 1126 01:06:31,483 --> 01:06:34,083 and therefore the State understands this 1127 01:06:34,163 --> 01:06:36,873 and invests tremendous resources in 1128 01:06:36,885 --> 01:06:39,683 preventing people -- not from abroad, 1129 01:06:39,763 --> 01:06:41,092 but its own residents -- from 1130 01:06:41,104 --> 01:06:42,843 knowing the truth about its past. 1131 01:06:45,836 --> 01:06:47,257 (chair squeaks) 1132 01:06:53,476 --> 01:06:55,187 (music continues) 1133 01:06:58,883 --> 01:07:00,443 In the morning after the battle, 1134 01:07:00,523 --> 01:07:02,200 the women and children were 1135 01:07:02,212 --> 01:07:04,403 gathered by the village entrance, 1136 01:07:04,723 --> 01:07:07,582 south of the cemetery, and from there 1137 01:07:07,594 --> 01:07:10,163 they were kicked out to Fureidis. 1138 01:07:12,483 --> 01:07:13,752 In Fureidis they don't have enough 1139 01:07:13,764 --> 01:07:15,083 food, they couldn't sustain themselves 1140 01:07:15,163 --> 01:07:17,142 and after two to three weeks a decision 1141 01:07:17,166 --> 01:07:18,883 is made to deport them eastward. 1142 01:07:19,243 --> 01:07:21,416 The issue of the Arab population in the 1143 01:07:21,428 --> 01:07:23,723 territories occupied by the Jewish forces 1144 01:07:24,003 --> 01:07:26,723 becomes acute: what do we do with these people? 1145 01:07:26,803 --> 01:07:29,443 When it comes to Tantura, there's another issue: 1146 01:07:29,763 --> 01:07:32,542 they have the information and memory 1147 01:07:32,554 --> 01:07:35,043 of what occurred in the village. 1148 01:07:35,203 --> 01:07:36,926 There's a secret we don't want 1149 01:07:36,938 --> 01:07:38,963 known between Tel Aviv and Haifa, 1150 01:07:39,043 --> 01:07:40,243 in the center of the country. 1151 01:07:40,403 --> 01:07:41,770 One thousand people who know it, 1152 01:07:41,782 --> 01:07:43,203 in the next generation, that's... 1153 01:07:43,283 --> 01:07:44,603 hundreds of thousands. 1154 01:07:44,683 --> 01:07:46,043 It's best these people are not around. 1155 01:07:48,603 --> 01:07:53,123 This article is from Maariv newspaper on June 20, 1948. 1156 01:07:54,083 --> 01:07:58,323 "There were old people so weak they were on the verge of death. 1157 01:07:58,403 --> 01:08:00,530 "A boy with two paralyzed legs, 1158 01:08:00,542 --> 01:08:03,083 "another boy whose hands were severed, 1159 01:08:03,443 --> 01:08:06,803 "the sick, who death had already marked. 1160 01:08:07,283 --> 01:08:09,403 "One woman carried her child in one arm 1161 01:08:09,483 --> 01:08:11,803 "and with the other hand she held her elderly mother. 1162 01:08:11,923 --> 01:08:14,603 "The latter couldn't keep up the pace, 1163 01:08:14,683 --> 01:08:16,776 "she yelled and begged her daughter to 1164 01:08:16,788 --> 01:08:19,163 "slow down, but the daughter didn't consent. 1165 01:08:19,363 --> 01:08:24,483 "Finally the old lady collapsed onto the road and couldn't move. 1166 01:08:24,683 --> 01:08:26,855 "The daughter pulled out her hair, 1167 01:08:26,867 --> 01:08:29,363 "tore off her dress in anger and in fear 1168 01:08:29,388 --> 01:08:31,163 "lest she not make it on time. 1169 01:08:31,243 --> 01:08:33,367 "And worse than this was the association 1170 01:08:33,379 --> 01:08:35,203 "to Jewish mothers and grandmothers 1171 01:08:35,430 --> 01:08:37,883 "who lagged this way on the roads 1172 01:08:37,908 --> 01:08:40,083 "under the crop of murderers." 1173 01:08:42,803 --> 01:08:45,723 A Jew almost couldn't escape this comparison, 1174 01:08:45,803 --> 01:08:47,563 certainly not in 1948 when European 1175 01:08:47,575 --> 01:08:49,643 roads were still full of Jewish refugees. 1176 01:08:50,243 --> 01:08:52,843 But the journalist is appalled by the comparison, 1177 01:08:52,923 --> 01:08:54,283 so he goes on to say, 1178 01:08:54,363 --> 01:08:56,843 "There is obviously no room for a such a comparison, 1179 01:08:56,923 --> 01:08:59,163 "this fate -- they brought upon themselves." 1180 01:08:59,243 --> 01:09:01,417 He makes the comparison and then writes, 1181 01:09:01,429 --> 01:09:03,563 "There is no room for this comparison." 1182 01:09:03,643 --> 01:09:06,843 Why did he put it in if there was no room for it? 1183 01:09:07,003 --> 01:09:08,656 Because he understood that to some 1184 01:09:08,668 --> 01:09:10,523 degree, there was room for comparison. 1185 01:09:11,643 --> 01:09:15,723 When the decision is made to evacuate the refugees of Tantura 1186 01:09:15,803 --> 01:09:17,723 from Fureidis beyond the border lines, 1187 01:09:18,288 --> 01:09:22,752 the decision includes carrying it out like a PR event. 1188 01:09:22,777 --> 01:09:24,902 (fast drum beat) 1189 01:09:25,683 --> 01:09:28,883 And conducting a PR event means you invite Israeli journalists, 1190 01:09:28,963 --> 01:09:32,203 you invite foreign journalists, you invite film crews, 1191 01:09:32,403 --> 01:09:34,883 which was pretty rare in those days. 1192 01:09:35,083 --> 01:09:37,968 In fact, it was a well-produced event, 1193 01:09:37,980 --> 01:09:40,803 meant to be shown to the whole world. 1194 01:09:41,128 --> 01:09:42,968 This is the Mukhtar of Fureidis. 1195 01:09:46,843 --> 01:09:49,803 "Red Cross officials took a child in their arms 1196 01:09:49,883 --> 01:09:51,363 "and the photographers took pictures, 1197 01:09:51,443 --> 01:09:54,000 "and with this humane act we'll meet again 1198 01:09:54,012 --> 01:09:56,283 in the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer newsreel." 1199 01:09:57,434 --> 01:09:59,844 {\an8}Buses run by the Red Cross conveying 1200 01:09:59,874 --> 01:10:02,492 {\an8}Arab refugees from territory of Israel. 1201 01:10:02,674 --> 01:10:05,194 Trudging on a journey across no man's land. 1202 01:10:05,219 --> 01:10:06,979 They are mostly women and children. 1203 01:10:07,004 --> 01:10:08,124 This is an example 1204 01:10:08,149 --> 01:10:11,149 of how a transfer of population goes on in Palestine. 1205 01:10:17,163 --> 01:10:21,123 The picture that emerges is that the Palestinian refugee story 1206 01:10:21,283 --> 01:10:22,363 is in fact not so terrible, 1207 01:10:22,443 --> 01:10:25,043 there's a sense of order, a certain logic. 1208 01:10:25,123 --> 01:10:27,458 That is to say, "we have no score to settle with Tantura, 1209 01:10:27,483 --> 01:10:29,523 "and they have no score to settle with us, 1210 01:10:29,548 --> 01:10:31,508 "see how well we're treating them." 1211 01:10:31,678 --> 01:10:33,754 (camera shutter clicks, emotional music) 1212 01:10:36,313 --> 01:10:37,318 (camera shutter clicks) 1213 01:10:40,446 --> 01:10:41,451 (camera shutter clicks) 1214 01:10:45,483 --> 01:10:50,047 The MGM film crew was also in Tantura a day or two before. 1215 01:10:50,763 --> 01:10:52,673 The footage shot there didn't make 1216 01:10:52,685 --> 01:10:54,443 it to the newsreel's final cut. 1217 01:10:54,523 --> 01:10:58,323 But we got our hands on the original footage. 1218 01:10:59,963 --> 01:11:05,363 In this footage we see a staging of the battle of Tantura. 1219 01:11:06,763 --> 01:11:08,843 We don't see the original residents, 1220 01:11:08,923 --> 01:11:10,830 we don't see the soldiers being shot at. 1221 01:11:12,163 --> 01:11:14,911 What we see is an abandoned village and 1222 01:11:14,923 --> 01:11:17,683 a reenactment of the battle of Tantura, 1223 01:11:17,763 --> 01:11:20,408 intended to portray it as devoid of 1224 01:11:20,420 --> 01:11:23,003 cruelty, irregular incidents, et cetera. 1225 01:11:23,843 --> 01:11:26,403 But the truth has its own power. 1226 01:11:29,323 --> 01:11:31,458 When we examine the raw footage we see 1227 01:11:31,470 --> 01:11:33,563 a village abandoned by its residents. 1228 01:11:36,883 --> 01:11:38,763 We see destruction, 1229 01:11:46,083 --> 01:11:48,243 We see barrels that were shot at, 1230 01:11:49,323 --> 01:11:51,443 We see the remnants of looting. 1231 01:11:53,683 --> 01:11:55,499 It's very easy not to deal with stories of this kind, 1232 01:11:56,963 --> 01:12:00,314 but the power of truth cannot be 1233 01:12:00,326 --> 01:12:04,403 hidden, and when it's hot, it surfaces, 1234 01:12:04,428 --> 01:12:06,828 and more people ask questions. 1235 01:12:08,782 --> 01:12:10,777 (music continues, birds chirp) 1236 01:12:22,843 --> 01:12:27,243 To find out more about what happened, 1237 01:12:27,403 --> 01:12:29,443 I went to the IDF archive 1238 01:12:29,523 --> 01:12:32,012 and searched for all the documents 1239 01:12:32,024 --> 01:12:34,883 that could shed light on what happened. 1240 01:12:36,163 --> 01:12:40,926 I accidentally came across two or three documents 1241 01:12:41,883 --> 01:12:47,803 that clearly weren't indented for me to reach. 1242 01:12:48,443 --> 01:12:53,603 And one was written by the Chief of Staff to Alexandroni: 1243 01:12:54,923 --> 01:12:56,443 "Re: Tantura, 1244 01:12:56,643 --> 01:12:59,563 "I was informed by the Department of Arab Affairs 1245 01:12:59,643 --> 01:13:02,537 "that our soldiers who entered Tantura 1246 01:13:02,549 --> 01:13:05,083 "carried out many acts of sabotage 1247 01:13:05,923 --> 01:13:09,443 "after the occupation, without any reason." 1248 01:13:09,670 --> 01:13:11,349 (sinister music) 1249 01:13:14,003 --> 01:13:16,723 Another letter from June 9th, 1250 01:13:16,883 --> 01:13:21,083 from Tantura base to the region commander: 1251 01:13:21,963 --> 01:13:27,656 "I checked yesterday the mass grave at Tantura cemetery. 1252 01:13:27,668 --> 01:13:30,483 "I found everything in order." 1253 01:13:33,763 --> 01:13:35,803 It's not me using the term "mass grave," 1254 01:13:37,803 --> 01:13:40,963 it's not me who says "burial site in Tantura," 1255 01:13:42,403 --> 01:13:46,603 and it's not me using the chilling words, 1256 01:13:47,723 --> 01:13:49,426 "everything in order." 1257 01:13:53,303 --> 01:13:54,764 (music builds) 1258 01:14:09,542 --> 01:14:11,143 (boat engine whirs) 1259 01:14:14,683 --> 01:14:18,403 Look what a pastoral village this should have been. 1260 01:14:18,483 --> 01:14:19,561 Like in Greece. 1261 01:14:19,589 --> 01:14:21,645 (water splashes) 1262 01:14:21,803 --> 01:14:23,443 And what's left of this village 1263 01:14:23,523 --> 01:14:26,123 is this single house where we're sitting now. 1264 01:14:26,443 --> 01:14:29,243 Everything around was destroyed. 1265 01:14:31,563 --> 01:14:35,523 What I heard is that there was a mass murder in Tantura. 1266 01:14:36,363 --> 01:14:41,523 and all the bodies that remained here were buried in mass graves. 1267 01:14:42,003 --> 01:14:45,603 They were buried by people from Fureidis. 1268 01:14:45,803 --> 01:14:48,723 It was horrible. What they saw was horrific. 1269 01:14:48,803 --> 01:14:51,643 They said, "We buried people everywhere. Everywhere". 1270 01:14:51,723 --> 01:14:55,363 At knee height, slightly above the knees. 1271 01:14:55,563 --> 01:14:56,643 This deep. 1272 01:14:56,723 --> 01:15:00,210 They just lay the body down and covered it. 1273 01:15:02,283 --> 01:15:05,603 In 1991 there was a man from Kibbutz Nachsholim, 1274 01:15:05,683 --> 01:15:08,483 he wanted to build a diving club. 1275 01:15:09,243 --> 01:15:11,684 As they were digging, they 1276 01:15:11,709 --> 01:15:13,003 revealed bones. 1277 01:15:13,028 --> 01:15:14,185 Where? 1278 01:15:14,210 --> 01:15:15,750 Bones from a mass grave, here behind us. 1279 01:15:19,963 --> 01:15:21,867 When I asked them, "What are you doing?" 1280 01:15:21,879 --> 01:15:23,843 they were digging with a backhoe loader. 1281 01:15:23,923 --> 01:15:25,523 Here, right here. 1282 01:15:25,603 --> 01:15:27,283 Here, where I'm standing. 1283 01:15:27,563 --> 01:15:28,963 Under me, here. 1284 01:15:29,123 --> 01:15:32,243 So as they were working I saw many bones, many, many bones, 1285 01:15:32,323 --> 01:15:33,803 I asked him, "What are these bones? 1286 01:15:33,883 --> 01:15:36,363 "What are these bones?" I was shocked. 1287 01:15:36,443 --> 01:15:39,683 He said, "These bones are from the days of Napoleon Bonaparte." 1288 01:15:39,763 --> 01:15:42,589 I said, "I'm afraid you're mistaken, these 1289 01:15:42,601 --> 01:15:45,643 "are mass graves from this village, from '48." 1290 01:15:45,883 --> 01:15:47,705 So he closed the matter, 1291 01:15:47,717 --> 01:15:50,163 he covered it all up and disappeared. 1292 01:15:50,723 --> 01:15:52,566 In the parking lot here, there's a 1293 01:15:52,578 --> 01:15:54,963 cemetery. They turned it into a parking lot. 1294 01:15:54,988 --> 01:15:56,018 A parking lot! 1295 01:15:56,043 --> 01:15:59,163 There are graves there, there's a whole cemetery there. 1296 01:15:59,403 --> 01:16:00,815 Everybody knows there's a whole 1297 01:16:00,827 --> 01:16:02,563 cemetery there, no one addressed that. 1298 01:16:02,723 --> 01:16:05,003 They leveled the whole place and turned it into a parking lot. 1299 01:16:05,083 --> 01:16:06,643 Where's the justice? Where's the justice? 1300 01:16:06,723 --> 01:16:09,283 Where's the justice here? There is no justice. 1301 01:16:09,756 --> 01:16:11,693 (music continues) 1302 01:16:12,723 --> 01:16:16,243 We don't know about it, because we weren't here. 1303 01:16:16,803 --> 01:16:18,603 We weren't here in the beginning. 1304 01:16:18,963 --> 01:16:21,803 What we knew is that there was a mass grave. 1305 01:16:21,883 --> 01:16:23,695 Do you think there was a mass grave? 1306 01:16:23,707 --> 01:16:25,003 - Yes. - What did you see? 1307 01:16:25,083 --> 01:16:27,323 We didn't see anything, but they said so. 1308 01:16:27,403 --> 01:16:30,083 - Alexandroni's soldiers? - No, not them. 1309 01:16:30,108 --> 01:16:32,203 No, they didn't talk about it with us. 1310 01:16:32,283 --> 01:16:37,628 Some people who remained in Fureidis came and showed us. 1311 01:16:37,883 --> 01:16:39,763 - Arabs? - Yes, yes. 1312 01:16:39,843 --> 01:16:40,923 That the grave is here. 1313 01:16:41,003 --> 01:16:44,803 But we didn't hear or see and we don't know. 1314 01:16:44,883 --> 01:16:46,323 We didn't see traces either. 1315 01:16:46,563 --> 01:16:48,523 Yes, we came after that. 1316 01:16:48,603 --> 01:16:50,723 There was nothing. We saw nothing. 1317 01:16:53,443 --> 01:16:55,043 - Um Rasmi. - Yes? 1318 01:16:55,763 --> 01:16:57,563 Do you remember where the dead were buried? 1319 01:16:57,763 --> 01:16:59,283 In the cemetery, 1320 01:16:59,363 --> 01:17:01,875 but not next to the existing 1321 01:17:01,900 --> 01:17:05,056 graves, on the side. On the side. 1322 01:17:05,282 --> 01:17:07,313 (computer mouse clicks) 1323 01:17:09,100 --> 01:17:11,076 (dramatic music) 1324 01:17:13,043 --> 01:17:20,163 When you go there you'll see the old cemetery in one place, 1325 01:17:20,243 --> 01:17:22,479 and the new graves in another 1326 01:17:22,491 --> 01:17:25,283 place, not far away, but separate. 1327 01:17:28,774 --> 01:17:30,243 (projector winds) 1328 01:17:31,346 --> 01:17:32,581 (music builds) 1329 01:17:34,443 --> 01:17:36,692 When you enter by the railroad tracks, 1330 01:17:36,704 --> 01:17:39,643 the cemetery is on the right. 1331 01:17:41,563 --> 01:17:43,403 It's a big cemetery. 1332 01:17:46,723 --> 01:17:51,203 South of the structure, in this whole area, there were graves. 1333 01:17:51,283 --> 01:17:53,711 From this structure southwards, 1334 01:17:53,723 --> 01:17:56,114 to the palm trees, that's all a cemetery. 1335 01:17:56,809 --> 01:17:59,883 There were three trees there, 1336 01:18:00,803 --> 01:18:07,363 30 meters north of those trees, more or less, 1337 01:18:07,883 --> 01:18:12,323 they dug a pit that was surrounded by piles of soil. 1338 01:18:20,114 --> 01:18:21,578 There must be two mass graves in 1339 01:18:21,603 --> 01:18:24,914 Tantura, according to the oral history. 1340 01:18:25,154 --> 01:18:26,883 And not only according to the oral history. 1341 01:18:26,908 --> 01:18:29,027 You go to people in Fureidis, 1342 01:18:29,052 --> 01:18:31,154 they tell you, "Of course there are two mass graves, 1343 01:18:31,234 --> 01:18:33,114 "we know where they are." - Where are they? 1344 01:18:33,274 --> 01:18:35,194 Under the parking lot. 1345 01:18:37,963 --> 01:18:42,723 It's quite clear that at least a significant part of the bodies 1346 01:18:43,963 --> 01:18:45,363 are buried... 1347 01:18:46,963 --> 01:18:49,683 In the ground under the parking lot. 1348 01:18:56,914 --> 01:18:58,344 (music continues softly) 1349 01:19:08,283 --> 01:19:11,963 I thought the conclusive proof, 1350 01:19:12,683 --> 01:19:14,963 the unequivocal proof, 1351 01:19:15,163 --> 01:19:17,243 would be if I dug 1352 01:19:17,603 --> 01:19:19,683 and found the mass grave 1353 01:19:20,043 --> 01:19:22,323 where the people were buried. 1354 01:19:24,523 --> 01:19:27,363 Who would have an interest to dig it up? 1355 01:19:28,283 --> 01:19:29,805 You say to me, "Dig it up, 1356 01:19:29,817 --> 01:19:31,883 "because there's something there." 1357 01:19:31,908 --> 01:19:34,982 What? I say there isn't, so who's gonna decide? 1358 01:19:37,874 --> 01:19:42,714 If we had the ability to go and look for the mass graves 1359 01:19:42,874 --> 01:19:45,394 and find them and excavate them, 1360 01:19:45,834 --> 01:19:48,594 official Israel -- government, 1361 01:19:48,674 --> 01:19:52,314 foreign ministry, mainstream academia -- 1362 01:19:53,234 --> 01:19:55,434 would find a way of saying 1363 01:19:55,514 --> 01:19:57,434 that what we see is not what we see. 1364 01:19:59,634 --> 01:20:01,394 I don't think it holds water, 1365 01:20:01,474 --> 01:20:02,874 there is no reason to do it, 1366 01:20:02,954 --> 01:20:05,314 I don't think they'd find anything there, 1367 01:20:06,154 --> 01:20:08,434 and I don't think it's worth the effort. 1368 01:20:08,754 --> 01:20:10,954 Don't you want to solve it once and for all? 1369 01:20:11,241 --> 01:20:13,449 I don't care if it isn't solved. 1370 01:20:15,874 --> 01:20:19,914 For me, and I don't think for the State of Israel... 1371 01:20:21,020 --> 01:20:23,300 It doesn't worth. 1372 01:20:23,954 --> 01:20:25,394 It's a huge project, 1373 01:20:25,794 --> 01:20:28,994 if it is possible at all, which I very much doubt, 1374 01:20:29,674 --> 01:20:32,874 and for what? Because some idiot said? 1375 01:20:38,169 --> 01:20:39,755 (computer mouse clicks) 1376 01:20:42,963 --> 01:20:45,963 We have on screen a current aerial photograph 1377 01:20:46,043 --> 01:20:47,603 of the Tantura area. 1378 01:20:47,923 --> 01:20:50,723 We'll bring up an aerial photo from 1946. 1379 01:20:52,283 --> 01:20:54,723 We see the village before the war, 1380 01:20:54,963 --> 01:20:58,324 and all that's left of Tantura is one 1381 01:20:58,336 --> 01:21:01,443 house on the beach, and the boats, 1382 01:21:02,323 --> 01:21:06,483 that surprisingly appear in all the photos along the shore. 1383 01:21:06,763 --> 01:21:11,323 In this photo from 1946 we can see the village center. 1384 01:21:11,683 --> 01:21:14,323 We see the main road, the entry to the village, 1385 01:21:14,803 --> 01:21:16,523 the area of the cemetery. 1386 01:21:16,923 --> 01:21:20,299 South of the cemetery, we have this 1387 01:21:20,311 --> 01:21:23,323 plot, surrounded by cactuses, 1388 01:21:24,043 --> 01:21:25,843 and in it we see three trees. 1389 01:21:26,083 --> 01:21:28,083 One, two, three. 1390 01:21:28,283 --> 01:21:33,323 If we shift from the photo from '46 to the photo from '49, 1391 01:21:33,403 --> 01:21:35,923 we can see that after the war 1392 01:21:36,043 --> 01:21:39,803 we have what looks like a trench, 1393 01:21:39,883 --> 01:21:41,203 an open trench. 1394 01:21:41,443 --> 01:21:48,843 Its length is 35 meters, its width is between 3 to 5 meters. 1395 01:21:49,523 --> 01:21:52,723 This specific area underwent a form of engineering activity 1396 01:21:53,083 --> 01:21:57,323 let's call it "a manipulation of the surface." 1397 01:21:57,477 --> 01:21:59,078 (suspenseful music) 1398 01:21:59,403 --> 01:22:02,363 To make a trench like this you need a tractor. 1399 01:22:02,443 --> 01:22:06,523 It's not that someone removed this layer of soil with a hoe. 1400 01:22:06,763 --> 01:22:09,843 We will move on to 1949 and we can clearly see, 1401 01:22:09,923 --> 01:22:14,363 someone did something, very focused and specific 1402 01:22:14,443 --> 01:22:15,989 Where is it today, this thing? 1403 01:22:17,043 --> 01:22:19,043 We can see that it's here. 1404 01:22:19,763 --> 01:22:24,683 And this is the parking lot of the beach and the museum. 1405 01:22:25,043 --> 01:22:28,283 No road was paved here, nothing was built here. 1406 01:22:30,443 --> 01:22:32,349 (music continues) 1407 01:22:34,883 --> 01:22:38,643 We can see that the base of the trench is 2.6 meters 1408 01:22:39,083 --> 01:22:41,923 and the upper section is about 3.5 meters. 1409 01:22:42,403 --> 01:22:45,243 So this is an open trench, about one meter deep. 1410 01:22:45,403 --> 01:22:47,243 This is an open trench what you see here? 1411 01:22:47,255 --> 01:22:48,258 It's an open trench. 1412 01:22:48,283 --> 01:22:50,163 Yes, it's an open trench. 1413 01:22:51,363 --> 01:22:53,026 You have more or less the precise 1414 01:22:53,038 --> 01:22:54,763 location of something you suspect, 1415 01:22:54,843 --> 01:22:58,206 something that can perhaps solidify 1416 01:22:58,218 --> 01:23:00,843 the testimonies, the story. 1417 01:23:01,363 --> 01:23:08,243 But to conclude and say, let's dig there and find out... 1418 01:23:09,123 --> 01:23:11,523 You know what? Maybe yes. Maybe no. 1419 01:23:12,963 --> 01:23:15,963 But I have a feeling 1420 01:23:16,163 --> 01:23:19,323 that if you think you'll go dig and find something, 1421 01:23:19,403 --> 01:23:21,483 someone beat you to it. 1422 01:23:22,443 --> 01:23:24,363 This is a dug trench. 1423 01:23:25,283 --> 01:23:28,363 Looking at it in a 3D rendered model 1424 01:23:28,443 --> 01:23:32,603 you will get a better picture. 1425 01:23:35,243 --> 01:23:39,723 You see it almost a year later. Do you understand? 1426 01:23:39,748 --> 01:23:44,213 Someone may have opened it and cleaned up the area. 1427 01:23:46,443 --> 01:23:48,123 It's not in preparation for... 1428 01:23:48,148 --> 01:23:49,901 it's more like... 1429 01:23:53,603 --> 01:23:55,403 A clean up or a change of the area. 1430 01:23:55,428 --> 01:23:56,948 Tampering with evidence? 1431 01:23:57,302 --> 01:23:58,528 (music continues) 1432 01:24:00,363 --> 01:24:02,163 Of some sort, yes. 1433 01:24:06,825 --> 01:24:08,559 (seagulls squawk) (music builds) 1434 01:24:33,279 --> 01:24:34,733 (music continues) 1435 01:24:37,083 --> 01:24:39,929 Sadly and shamefully, 1436 01:24:41,203 --> 01:24:44,083 the current generation doesn't understand 1437 01:24:44,483 --> 01:24:50,843 that when they walk in this area of Tantura, 1438 01:24:51,723 --> 01:24:55,243 they're actually walking 1439 01:24:55,403 --> 01:25:01,003 over mass graves where ex-residents were buried, 1440 01:25:01,563 --> 01:25:06,243 and it was hidden in such a way that future generations 1441 01:25:06,443 --> 01:25:10,563 will walk there without knowing what they are stepping on. 1442 01:25:16,763 --> 01:25:18,843 Of course, it's much easier 1443 01:25:19,403 --> 01:25:21,671 to ignore the whole thing and then 1444 01:25:22,493 --> 01:25:23,923 you walk with a clear conscience. 1445 01:25:23,948 --> 01:25:26,788 You didn't dirty your conscience. 1446 01:25:28,443 --> 01:25:31,203 You didn't see, you don't know, you don't recognize... 1447 01:25:32,323 --> 01:25:33,537 So everything is fine. 1448 01:25:35,643 --> 01:25:36,888 I simply can't. 1449 01:25:40,241 --> 01:25:41,913 (music continues) 1450 01:25:45,443 --> 01:25:47,323 There are people here who don't care. 1451 01:25:47,443 --> 01:25:52,243 Our history, as it is conveyed to us, is far from the truth. 1452 01:25:52,323 --> 01:25:54,800 There needs to be a change in thinking, 1453 01:25:54,812 --> 01:25:56,803 about everything that happened, 1454 01:25:56,883 --> 01:26:00,043 to recognize the fact that there was a Nakba here. Period. 1455 01:26:00,302 --> 01:26:02,422 And if there are places... 1456 01:26:04,323 --> 01:26:08,083 where a monument is needed on a mass grave, it must be done. 1457 01:26:08,203 --> 01:26:09,469 Because that's the history, that's 1458 01:26:09,481 --> 01:26:10,723 the truth. No need to be ashamed. 1459 01:26:10,803 --> 01:26:13,163 Yes, there was a war here, fine. 1460 01:26:13,363 --> 01:26:15,963 But there are people here to whom we must pay our respects. 1461 01:26:16,701 --> 01:26:20,115 Recognition, only recognition. Before even doing anything. 1462 01:26:20,963 --> 01:26:23,269 As customary nowadays in Australia. 1463 01:26:25,643 --> 01:26:28,099 Clearly the aboriginals are still 1464 01:26:28,123 --> 01:26:30,723 deprived, suffering, rejected, 1465 01:26:31,163 --> 01:26:35,397 but the State, symbolically, through countless 1466 01:26:35,409 --> 01:26:38,843 gestures, recognizes their injustice. 1467 01:26:39,203 --> 01:26:42,123 And this recognition is a starting point. 1468 01:26:42,443 --> 01:26:45,732 To say it explicitly: In 1948 terrible 1469 01:26:45,744 --> 01:26:49,723 injustices were inflicted on the Palestinians, 1470 01:26:50,163 --> 01:26:54,395 robbery, looting, deportation and massacre. 1471 01:26:55,203 --> 01:26:59,203 This thing doesn't even... 1472 01:27:00,563 --> 01:27:06,283 glitter on the horizon of public life in Israel. 1473 01:27:08,243 --> 01:27:10,963 Let's say people from Fureidis show up and say, 1474 01:27:11,043 --> 01:27:14,363 "We want to construct a monument in memory of our loved ones." 1475 01:27:14,443 --> 01:27:16,923 I don't think they'd let them. 1476 01:27:17,403 --> 01:27:19,883 The entire kibbutz, not just me. 1477 01:27:20,423 --> 01:27:21,543 They wouldn't let them. 1478 01:27:21,723 --> 01:27:25,763 Because if they ask for it, it means it's important to them. 1479 01:27:25,843 --> 01:27:27,043 Yes, it's important. 1480 01:27:27,068 --> 01:27:30,344 If it's important to them, then it harms me. 1481 01:27:31,283 --> 01:27:34,123 There is no Tantura here, there is no Tantura here now. 1482 01:27:34,153 --> 01:27:35,356 There is no Tantura village. 1483 01:27:35,381 --> 01:27:36,440 - They can take -- - It's history. 1484 01:27:36,465 --> 01:27:38,538 -- whoever is buried there 1485 01:27:38,563 --> 01:27:39,977 and bury them in Fureidis. 1486 01:27:39,989 --> 01:27:41,963 But a monument is not for graves. 1487 01:27:42,043 --> 01:27:47,803 A monument is so that you won't forget what happened. 1488 01:27:47,828 --> 01:27:49,603 Right. That's what they want. 1489 01:27:49,628 --> 01:27:51,950 That's what they want, and I don't. 1490 01:27:52,723 --> 01:27:54,203 I don't want that. 1491 01:27:55,883 --> 01:27:58,763 I think they have the right to remember, what do you want? 1492 01:27:58,788 --> 01:28:00,538 Fine, they can remember quietly. 1493 01:28:00,563 --> 01:28:03,443 Like we remember that we were in Europe, 1494 01:28:03,523 --> 01:28:05,723 they want to remember that they were here. 1495 01:28:05,803 --> 01:28:07,835 It won't help, my friends. 1496 01:28:07,847 --> 01:28:10,083 Once there's a sign, there's ownership. 1497 01:28:10,163 --> 01:28:11,702 He's asking what we think, not 1498 01:28:11,714 --> 01:28:13,523 what will help. What do you want? 1499 01:28:13,603 --> 01:28:15,843 A sign is ownership. 1500 01:28:16,523 --> 01:28:19,283 It's about property. "This is mine." 1501 01:28:19,683 --> 01:28:20,803 That's it. 1502 01:28:21,203 --> 01:28:22,363 It will not end. 1503 01:28:22,443 --> 01:28:29,414 When they say they've come to terms with it, yes. 1504 01:28:29,683 --> 01:28:32,443 If they haven't, no. That's it. 1505 01:28:32,883 --> 01:28:34,003 Come to terms with what? 1506 01:28:34,083 --> 01:28:35,763 That we're here. 1507 01:28:35,843 --> 01:28:38,643 I have a different opinion and I will say it. 1508 01:28:38,668 --> 01:28:41,588 I was in Warsaw last year 1509 01:28:42,243 --> 01:28:46,883 and you see monuments everywhere 1510 01:28:47,283 --> 01:28:50,963 in memory of what happened there. 1511 01:28:51,683 --> 01:28:54,563 If they did it in their city, 1512 01:28:55,363 --> 01:28:56,963 we can also do that. 1513 01:28:59,699 --> 01:29:01,239 (pensive vocal music) 1514 01:29:52,446 --> 01:29:53,923 (music continues) 1515 01:30:08,341 --> 01:30:10,449 (siren sounds) 1516 01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:18,867 (flame roars) 1517 01:30:24,963 --> 01:30:27,513 There are things you don't want to remember. 1518 01:30:29,003 --> 01:30:30,283 Right? 1519 01:30:30,803 --> 01:30:31,883 Yes. 1520 01:30:32,323 --> 01:30:34,723 I made myself forget. 1521 01:30:36,283 --> 01:30:37,563 Yes, yes. 1522 01:30:38,243 --> 01:30:40,203 I was horribly traumatized. 1523 01:30:40,963 --> 01:30:44,643 I lost my best friends. 1524 01:30:45,163 --> 01:30:47,363 So forgetting is a self-defense mechanism? 1525 01:30:47,388 --> 01:30:49,615 Yes, and I tried not to think about it. 1526 01:30:52,123 --> 01:30:53,363 To this day. 1527 01:30:53,763 --> 01:30:55,203 To this day. 1528 01:30:58,683 --> 01:31:00,803 Listen, war is war. 1529 01:31:01,403 --> 01:31:04,523 Not everyone can know what war is. 1530 01:31:05,203 --> 01:31:07,723 And I say, whoever wasn't there 1531 01:31:07,803 --> 01:31:10,323 can't judge anyone else. 1532 01:31:11,643 --> 01:31:14,363 Really can't judge anyone else. 1533 01:31:14,723 --> 01:31:19,123 Later on, didn't you ever ask yourself, 1534 01:31:19,203 --> 01:31:22,163 "What the hell did I do? Why did I do it?" 1535 01:31:23,003 --> 01:31:24,803 I'm telling the truth: no. 1536 01:31:25,363 --> 01:31:27,843 I'm telling the truth: no. 1537 01:31:27,963 --> 01:31:31,803 At night, sometimes I would suddenly wake up, 1538 01:31:31,883 --> 01:31:37,643 but gradually... I decided not to think about these things. 1539 01:31:37,883 --> 01:31:39,683 Not to think about them at all. 1540 01:31:39,763 --> 01:31:42,803 And I stopped and that was it. 1541 01:31:42,807 --> 01:31:44,322 (soft acoustic music) 1541 01:31:45,305 --> 01:32:45,233 Watch Online Movies and Series for FREE www.osdb.link/lm