"Capturing Their Killer: The Girls on the High Bridge" Episode #1.2

1 00:00:07,049 --> 00:00:09,969 Okay. You want... let's see. 2 00:00:10,052 --> 00:00:12,805 Oh, my gosh, our prom. 3 00:00:12,888 --> 00:00:15,808 I got a cheap prom dress, 4 00:00:15,891 --> 00:00:18,602 and he didn't mind wearing peach. 5 00:00:18,685 --> 00:00:20,813 He had peach on. 6 00:00:20,896 --> 00:00:24,400 I think this one was in '90. 7 00:00:24,483 --> 00:00:27,194 We just look like babies. 8 00:00:27,277 --> 00:00:28,612 Oh, yeah. 9 00:00:28,695 --> 00:00:32,158 Oh, my gosh, my aunt did my hair for our wedding. 10 00:00:32,241 --> 00:00:35,077 Man, he was a good-looking guy. He still is, but... 11 00:00:38,455 --> 00:00:40,249 He was such... 12 00:00:40,332 --> 00:00:44,003 He was so excited about having a girl. 13 00:00:44,086 --> 00:00:46,380 He's a good daddy. 14 00:00:46,463 --> 00:00:49,007 This is probably my favorite picture of us together. 15 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:54,930 These actually bring me joy because those were good times. 16 00:00:56,682 --> 00:00:59,518 I just have to hope they're coming back, so... 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:07,074 Watch Online Movies and Series for FREE www.osdb.link/lm 18 00:01:10,570 --> 00:01:13,908 Today is not a day to celebrate, 19 00:01:13,991 --> 00:01:17,953 but the arrest of Richard M. Allen of Delphi 20 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:21,290 on two counts of murder is sure a major step 21 00:01:21,373 --> 00:01:23,751 in leading to the conclusion 22 00:01:23,834 --> 00:01:27,254 of this long-term and complex investigation. 23 00:01:35,053 --> 00:01:38,557 I need people to know that my husband's not a monster. 24 00:01:40,642 --> 00:01:44,939 He's not the monster that people think he is. 25 00:01:45,022 --> 00:01:48,776 He's been accused of a horrendous crime... 26 00:01:48,859 --> 00:01:51,153 Being charged with double homicide of two girls. 27 00:01:57,993 --> 00:02:00,746 I just need to get a breath. Okay. 28 00:02:00,829 --> 00:02:02,790 Yeah. 29 00:02:10,547 --> 00:02:15,386 I met Richard through my cousin. 30 00:02:15,469 --> 00:02:16,845 We went to school together, 31 00:02:16,928 --> 00:02:19,139 but she thought we'd be a good match. 32 00:02:19,222 --> 00:02:20,975 Call him Ricky. 33 00:02:21,058 --> 00:02:23,936 That's how he introduced himself to me was, 34 00:02:24,019 --> 00:02:25,104 "I'm Ricky." 35 00:02:25,187 --> 00:02:26,772 He was really cute. 36 00:02:26,855 --> 00:02:30,359 And he had kind of long, wavy blonde hair... 37 00:02:30,442 --> 00:02:32,361 Beautiful, blue eyes. 38 00:02:32,444 --> 00:02:34,446 He just was really sweet. 39 00:02:34,529 --> 00:02:37,283 I mean, I hadn't met a guy like him before. 40 00:02:37,366 --> 00:02:39,910 Ricky and I always felt a connection. 41 00:02:39,993 --> 00:02:41,704 And we didn't care what people thought. 42 00:02:41,787 --> 00:02:44,373 We were going to get married right out of high school. 43 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:50,129 We had a daughter in 1994, Brittany. 44 00:02:50,212 --> 00:02:53,549 Ricky is a wonderful, caring, 45 00:02:53,632 --> 00:02:55,342 compassionate father. 46 00:02:55,425 --> 00:02:58,762 Taking care of family was his top priority. 47 00:03:01,973 --> 00:03:05,060 We decided Delphi was a good place to raise a child, 48 00:03:05,143 --> 00:03:08,856 so we did move there in 2006. 49 00:03:08,939 --> 00:03:11,859 Ricky's always been in customer service. 50 00:03:11,942 --> 00:03:15,404 At that point, he'd left Walmart and started at CVS. 51 00:03:17,698 --> 00:03:19,825 Brittany graduated in 2013, 52 00:03:19,908 --> 00:03:23,120 and so she was going to college. 53 00:03:27,541 --> 00:03:30,169 Ricky had the day off on the 13th. 54 00:03:30,252 --> 00:03:32,379 And I get home that evening, 55 00:03:32,462 --> 00:03:35,549 and Ricky's laying on the couch. 56 00:03:35,632 --> 00:03:37,301 I just remember sitting down on the couch, 57 00:03:37,384 --> 00:03:39,470 and the news flash came on. 58 00:03:42,139 --> 00:03:43,640 He's like, "Well, what's going on?" 59 00:03:43,723 --> 00:03:45,392 I said, "Well, the news is on, 60 00:03:45,475 --> 00:03:48,312 and there's two girls missing in Delphi." 61 00:03:48,395 --> 00:03:49,730 He's like, "What?" 62 00:03:49,813 --> 00:03:52,483 I said, "They said they were out on the Monon Trail today." 63 00:03:52,566 --> 00:03:54,860 He seemed very surprised. 64 00:03:54,943 --> 00:03:57,404 And he's like, "Well, I was out on the trail today." 65 00:03:57,487 --> 00:04:01,241 I'm like, "Did you see them?" 66 00:04:01,324 --> 00:04:02,743 He says, "No." 67 00:04:05,287 --> 00:04:07,998 Ricky called the police department 68 00:04:08,081 --> 00:04:10,667 to speak to the officers. 69 00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:13,045 He was more than willing to help. 70 00:04:17,048 --> 00:04:20,135 It was a couple days or more before they even talked to him. 71 00:04:20,218 --> 00:04:21,970 He texted me and said, you know, 72 00:04:22,053 --> 00:04:23,597 he met with this conservation officer. 73 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:24,890 Didn't give me his name. 74 00:04:24,973 --> 00:04:28,685 They met at the Save A Lot grocery store. 75 00:04:28,768 --> 00:04:30,062 It wasn't a big deal. 76 00:04:30,145 --> 00:04:32,898 He goes, "Yeah, they just took my phone and looked at it, 77 00:04:32,981 --> 00:04:34,316 and he handed it back." 78 00:04:36,485 --> 00:04:37,695 But then we heard nothing. 79 00:04:37,778 --> 00:04:39,488 We heard nothing. 80 00:04:41,364 --> 00:04:43,909 After the murders, we all were scared. 81 00:04:43,992 --> 00:04:46,537 We didn't walk that trail 82 00:04:46,620 --> 00:04:48,914 for a long, long time after that. 83 00:04:48,997 --> 00:04:50,499 And in fact, Ricky said, 84 00:04:50,582 --> 00:04:52,960 "I don't want you going out by yourself anymore." 85 00:04:53,043 --> 00:04:54,461 But our lives went on. 86 00:04:54,544 --> 00:04:56,380 Our lives went on. Everybody's lives went on. 87 00:04:56,463 --> 00:04:58,424 It was like you went to work the next day. 88 00:04:58,507 --> 00:05:00,550 I mean, what are you going to do? 89 00:05:03,178 --> 00:05:04,888 The years went on. 90 00:05:08,767 --> 00:05:12,521 Not one person says a word for five or six years. 91 00:05:12,604 --> 00:05:15,065 And all of a sudden, officers came to our door 92 00:05:15,148 --> 00:05:16,650 and knocked on our door 93 00:05:16,733 --> 00:05:20,737 and wanted to know if they could talk to him. 94 00:05:24,032 --> 00:05:25,576 They're like, well, we'd like 95 00:05:25,659 --> 00:05:27,702 for to come down to the station. 96 00:05:39,214 --> 00:05:41,133 It started out just kind of nice, you know, 97 00:05:41,216 --> 00:05:43,218 questions here and there and... 98 00:06:03,405 --> 00:06:05,783 And then they started drilling him 99 00:06:05,866 --> 00:06:09,703 and asking him, "The picture, is this you?" 100 00:06:23,425 --> 00:06:24,426 Mm-hmm. 101 00:06:45,238 --> 00:06:46,823 Ricky knew something wasn't right 102 00:06:46,906 --> 00:06:48,491 when he was being interrogated. 103 00:07:38,541 --> 00:07:40,627 He said he felt like he was being accused 104 00:07:40,710 --> 00:07:42,754 of something he didn't do. 105 00:07:42,837 --> 00:07:44,840 The next thing you know, they're coming to the house 106 00:07:44,923 --> 00:07:46,425 with a search warrant. 107 00:07:46,508 --> 00:07:48,468 You know, my husband and I are sitting in our van 108 00:07:48,551 --> 00:07:50,762 in our driveway just waiting for them to be done. 109 00:07:50,845 --> 00:07:52,472 I'm crying. 110 00:07:52,555 --> 00:07:54,433 Ricky was trying to console me, 111 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:56,143 because I was just like, "What is happening? 112 00:07:56,226 --> 00:07:59,813 And why would they even ask you these questions?" 113 00:07:59,896 --> 00:08:02,441 Of course, our neighbors are going by. 114 00:08:02,524 --> 00:08:04,526 We were mortified. 115 00:08:04,609 --> 00:08:07,362 We were so embarrassed to have vans 116 00:08:07,445 --> 00:08:08,947 and cop cars all over our house. 117 00:08:09,030 --> 00:08:11,241 Somewhere along the lines, Ricky said something like, 118 00:08:11,324 --> 00:08:13,201 "Well, it's over. 119 00:08:13,284 --> 00:08:16,204 It doesn't matter anymore." 120 00:08:16,287 --> 00:08:18,540 And then they said, "Well, we're taking your car." 121 00:08:18,623 --> 00:08:21,751 So they drag our car out on a flatbed. 122 00:08:23,461 --> 00:08:26,715 So, yeah, that was a pretty bad day. 123 00:08:31,886 --> 00:08:36,642 The 26th of October is when we went to pick up our car. 124 00:08:39,185 --> 00:08:42,272 We get asked if we could clear up a few things. 125 00:08:42,355 --> 00:08:43,774 Ricky's like, "Well, sure." 126 00:08:43,857 --> 00:08:46,360 Gives me, you know, his coat and such 127 00:08:46,443 --> 00:08:48,862 and goes into a room by himself. 128 00:08:48,945 --> 00:08:51,031 Very early on in the investigation, 129 00:08:51,114 --> 00:08:55,035 there had been a bullet found down at the crime scene. 130 00:08:55,118 --> 00:08:56,536 The bullet was unspent. 131 00:08:56,619 --> 00:08:58,455 In other words, it had not been fired. 132 00:09:22,020 --> 00:09:23,229 Okay... 133 00:09:26,858 --> 00:09:28,276 Okay. 134 00:09:35,784 --> 00:09:38,120 So they have me go in and sit down with Ricky. 135 00:09:38,203 --> 00:09:39,662 Hug you. 136 00:09:42,582 --> 00:09:45,377 My husband says to me, "You know me." 137 00:09:48,213 --> 00:09:49,965 He goes, "You know I'm not capable 138 00:09:50,048 --> 00:09:51,550 of something like that." 139 00:09:54,135 --> 00:09:56,388 And then, finally, 140 00:09:56,471 --> 00:09:59,307 Holeman came back in the room... 141 00:09:59,390 --> 00:10:02,728 and he started hollering at Ricky 142 00:10:02,811 --> 00:10:05,480 and slamming his fist on the table. 143 00:10:05,563 --> 00:10:07,816 He said, "You're going to tell me you did it!" 144 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:18,035 My husband's looking at me with these eyes like, 145 00:10:18,118 --> 00:10:21,371 "You know I didn't do anything." 146 00:10:21,454 --> 00:10:25,041 And I had no reason to not believe him, none. 147 00:10:25,124 --> 00:10:28,086 I have no reason whatsoever. 148 00:10:45,311 --> 00:10:47,647 They said they were going to detain my husband 149 00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:49,649 and that I was free to leave. 150 00:10:56,364 --> 00:11:00,660 I do remember Ricky telling me that I needed to get a lawyer. 151 00:11:00,743 --> 00:11:03,163 When I retain that lawyer, he goes, you know, 152 00:11:03,246 --> 00:11:05,582 "I'm going to get your husband out of there tonight." 153 00:11:05,665 --> 00:11:08,460 But then he calls me back later that same evening and says, 154 00:11:08,543 --> 00:11:10,629 "I'm not going to be able to get your husband out 155 00:11:10,712 --> 00:11:13,632 because they're going to charge him tomorrow with murder." 156 00:11:24,934 --> 00:11:27,521 It was a Wednesday. 157 00:11:27,604 --> 00:11:29,022 They called us in. 158 00:11:29,105 --> 00:11:30,565 It came out of nowhere. 159 00:11:30,648 --> 00:11:32,442 Every time something like that would happen, 160 00:11:32,525 --> 00:11:34,736 you'd get your hopes up, that, oh, my God, this is it. 161 00:11:34,819 --> 00:11:37,488 He said, "Anna, we're going to make an arrest." 162 00:11:38,948 --> 00:11:43,119 They told us, they had somebody in custody. 163 00:11:43,202 --> 00:11:45,914 And he will officially be charged 164 00:11:45,997 --> 00:11:48,041 with Abby and Libby's murder. 165 00:11:50,168 --> 00:11:51,878 Today was a sigh of relief 166 00:11:51,961 --> 00:11:53,755 for the families, investigators, 167 00:11:53,838 --> 00:11:55,382 and the Delphi community. 168 00:11:55,465 --> 00:11:57,634 50-year-old Richard Allen has been charged 169 00:11:57,717 --> 00:11:59,010 with two counts of murder. 170 00:11:59,093 --> 00:12:04,099 Investigators say he was hiding in plain sight. 171 00:12:04,182 --> 00:12:06,810 I'd always been told that when I saw the killer, 172 00:12:06,893 --> 00:12:10,355 I would just know it in my gut that it was him. 173 00:12:10,438 --> 00:12:12,149 It made me sick to my stomach 174 00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:14,568 to actually be looking at a picture of him. 175 00:12:17,070 --> 00:12:19,364 I was floored, quite honestly, 176 00:12:19,447 --> 00:12:23,743 that we really had somebody living amongst us 177 00:12:23,826 --> 00:12:26,579 that had done this and never let on. 178 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:30,333 In Delphi and the online community, 179 00:12:30,416 --> 00:12:32,127 there's just this general sense of relief 180 00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:34,254 that finally this may have been solved. 181 00:12:34,337 --> 00:12:36,506 It's just a big relief, really is. 182 00:12:36,589 --> 00:12:37,924 I'm overwhelmed. 183 00:12:38,007 --> 00:12:40,426 I mean, I knew that it was going to happen someday. 184 00:12:45,807 --> 00:12:48,310 My reaction, along with a lot of other people, was, 185 00:12:48,393 --> 00:12:50,228 I've never heard of this guy. 186 00:12:51,813 --> 00:12:54,441 When I heard Rick Allen was arrested, 187 00:12:54,524 --> 00:12:55,775 I was shocked. 188 00:12:55,858 --> 00:12:57,402 Many of you on social media... 189 00:12:57,485 --> 00:12:59,195 on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook... 190 00:12:59,278 --> 00:13:02,407 are asking, "Who is Richard Matthew Allen?" 191 00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:05,410 His home, less than 2 miles from the trail 192 00:13:05,493 --> 00:13:07,162 where the young girls vanished. 193 00:13:07,245 --> 00:13:09,539 Police releasing two sketches of the suspect, 194 00:13:09,622 --> 00:13:12,751 always warning, he could be a member of the community. 195 00:13:12,834 --> 00:13:15,128 A photo at a local bar where Allen was a regular 196 00:13:15,211 --> 00:13:18,173 shows him standing with one of those suspect sketches 197 00:13:18,256 --> 00:13:19,174 behind him. 198 00:13:19,257 --> 00:13:20,759 Delphi is a very small town, 199 00:13:20,842 --> 00:13:22,969 and we found out that he worked one block 200 00:13:23,052 --> 00:13:26,348 from the police station, at the CVS Pharmacy. 201 00:13:26,431 --> 00:13:28,391 I mean, CVS is, like, 202 00:13:28,474 --> 00:13:32,103 the most frequented store in Delphi. 203 00:13:32,186 --> 00:13:34,397 How did so many people walk past him every day 204 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:35,899 and not call it in? 205 00:13:35,982 --> 00:13:39,736 Nobody recognized that voice? Nobody recognized that face? 206 00:13:39,819 --> 00:13:42,072 How did he fly under the radar so long? 207 00:13:42,155 --> 00:13:44,282 And how did police finally find him? 208 00:13:48,911 --> 00:13:50,080 All right, this is an interview 209 00:13:50,163 --> 00:13:52,832 with Brett and Alice... take one, marker. 210 00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:55,210 This case is not about Richard Allen. 211 00:13:55,293 --> 00:13:56,378 It's about Abby and Libby. 212 00:13:56,461 --> 00:13:58,421 Both of us are practicing prosecutors. 213 00:13:58,504 --> 00:14:01,257 We started The Prosecutors Podcast. 214 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:03,218 We've been doing the podcast now 215 00:14:03,301 --> 00:14:04,970 for about five years. 216 00:14:05,053 --> 00:14:07,847 He was the one who put himself on police radar. 217 00:14:09,682 --> 00:14:11,851 It turns out, the police had evidence 218 00:14:11,934 --> 00:14:13,770 that Richard Allen had been involved in this 219 00:14:13,853 --> 00:14:16,147 from the very beginning. 220 00:14:17,857 --> 00:14:21,403 Within a week after the homicide took place, 221 00:14:21,486 --> 00:14:23,029 Richard Allen had called in himself 222 00:14:23,112 --> 00:14:26,866 and told investigators that he was out on the bridge that day. 223 00:14:26,949 --> 00:14:29,494 A conservation officer had taken a report 224 00:14:29,577 --> 00:14:30,704 from Richard Allen. 225 00:14:30,787 --> 00:14:32,288 He wrote the report up. 226 00:14:32,371 --> 00:14:34,624 It was misfiled, and it was left behind. 227 00:14:36,292 --> 00:14:38,003 Why do you think the report 228 00:14:38,086 --> 00:14:40,171 never made it in front of the right person? 229 00:14:40,254 --> 00:14:44,384 Unfortunately, with things that we couldn't control, 230 00:14:44,467 --> 00:14:48,096 it got mislabeled, misfiled, never got to the right person. 231 00:14:48,179 --> 00:14:49,472 The tip was lost, 232 00:14:49,555 --> 00:14:51,474 essentially for about five years. 233 00:14:51,557 --> 00:14:53,268 Years later, a volunteer 234 00:14:53,351 --> 00:14:55,812 was looking through the files. 235 00:14:55,895 --> 00:14:57,731 Kathy Shank was retired 236 00:14:57,814 --> 00:14:59,607 and devoting her time volunteering 237 00:14:59,690 --> 00:15:00,900 for the cold case. 238 00:15:00,983 --> 00:15:02,527 When you opened up that drawer, 239 00:15:02,610 --> 00:15:03,737 what went through your mind? 240 00:15:03,820 --> 00:15:06,114 I realized 241 00:15:06,197 --> 00:15:09,159 that I had not heard of this person. 242 00:15:09,242 --> 00:15:12,912 She recognized what no one had recognized before. 243 00:15:12,995 --> 00:15:15,623 She saw that this was someone putting himself 244 00:15:15,706 --> 00:15:17,917 at the scene of the crime. 245 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,087 She pulled that tip, and she brought it to Sheriff Liggett, 246 00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:23,631 imploring him to look into it. 247 00:15:33,057 --> 00:15:36,102 So this tip is taken by Kathy Shank 248 00:15:36,185 --> 00:15:38,730 to Sheriff Liggett, and he immediately recognizes, 249 00:15:38,813 --> 00:15:41,232 this is something we need to follow up on. 250 00:15:48,906 --> 00:15:51,951 What was the moment that you knew, this is the guy? 251 00:15:52,034 --> 00:15:53,912 I think during the first interview, 252 00:15:53,995 --> 00:15:56,247 he just described himself as "bridge guy." 253 00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:21,940 When he wouldn't allow us to look at his phone 254 00:16:22,023 --> 00:16:24,651 or get his DNA, we were able to apply and obtain 255 00:16:24,734 --> 00:16:26,820 a search warrant for his residence. 256 00:16:26,903 --> 00:16:28,613 They're starting to find things 257 00:16:28,696 --> 00:16:29,948 that connect him to the crime. 258 00:16:30,031 --> 00:16:31,991 Law enforcement found a gun 259 00:16:32,074 --> 00:16:35,537 that they were able to tie to an unspent bullet 260 00:16:35,620 --> 00:16:37,455 found at the scene of the crime. 261 00:16:37,538 --> 00:16:40,166 Now, remember, the girls weren't shot. 262 00:16:40,249 --> 00:16:41,626 They were stabbed. 263 00:16:41,709 --> 00:16:43,795 But we believe the perpetrator may have racked his gun 264 00:16:43,878 --> 00:16:46,381 to intimidate them, which could have caused a bullet 265 00:16:46,464 --> 00:16:48,258 to fall out at the crime scene. 266 00:16:48,341 --> 00:16:50,176 When a bullet goes through a gun, 267 00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:53,054 whether it's ejected from a gun or fired from a gun, 268 00:16:53,137 --> 00:16:55,181 the gun can leave certain markings. 269 00:16:55,264 --> 00:16:58,184 And you can use those markings to match a bullet 270 00:16:58,267 --> 00:17:00,270 to a gun. 271 00:17:00,353 --> 00:17:02,689 My name is Shaun Jaikissoon. 272 00:17:02,772 --> 00:17:04,899 I've worked for the NYPD for 20 years. 273 00:17:04,982 --> 00:17:07,443 I was assigned to the Firearms Division. 274 00:17:07,526 --> 00:17:09,362 I'm looking at the lab report 275 00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:11,865 from Indiana State Police Laboratory, 276 00:17:11,948 --> 00:17:13,533 and it says they found 277 00:17:13,616 --> 00:17:15,869 that the live cartridge was cycled 278 00:17:15,952 --> 00:17:19,747 from Richard Allen's SIG Sauer, model 226. 279 00:17:21,582 --> 00:17:26,129 I think the firearms examiner came to a finding 280 00:17:26,212 --> 00:17:28,298 that I agree with, 281 00:17:28,381 --> 00:17:30,425 but there is an error rate. 282 00:17:30,508 --> 00:17:33,303 People challenge this science all the time, 283 00:17:33,386 --> 00:17:35,889 and I do think in this particular case 284 00:17:35,972 --> 00:17:39,017 that a second look would be beneficial. 285 00:17:44,021 --> 00:17:46,900 When police searched the home, something else happened... 286 00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:49,527 something small but significant for the investigators. 287 00:17:51,612 --> 00:17:53,072 I told Richard Allen 288 00:17:53,155 --> 00:17:54,908 I was going to do a walkthrough and why, 289 00:17:54,991 --> 00:17:57,660 and that if we did destroy anything, 290 00:17:57,743 --> 00:17:59,454 it wasn't going to be on purpose 291 00:17:59,537 --> 00:18:01,664 and that there's a process. 292 00:18:01,747 --> 00:18:04,417 And he made the comment, "It doesn't matter. 293 00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:06,669 It's over anyway." 294 00:18:06,752 --> 00:18:08,463 I asked him what he meant by it. 295 00:18:08,546 --> 00:18:10,507 He just said, "Well, you've talked to these people, 296 00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:14,719 and they all think I'm guilty, and my life's over anyway." 297 00:18:14,802 --> 00:18:16,262 All right, Rick, this is... 298 00:18:16,345 --> 00:18:17,764 That's just weird to me 299 00:18:17,847 --> 00:18:19,807 that an innocent person would say that. 300 00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:33,655 Mm-hmm. 301 00:18:33,738 --> 00:18:35,531 I offered him a polygraph. 302 00:18:35,614 --> 00:18:37,867 He refused multiple times. 303 00:18:37,950 --> 00:18:39,953 And then I said, "You know, if you're innocent, 304 00:18:40,036 --> 00:18:41,620 take the effing polygraph." 305 00:19:06,187 --> 00:19:08,565 When I really got angry is when he said that, 306 00:19:08,648 --> 00:19:10,149 "You're going to pay for this." 307 00:19:10,232 --> 00:19:11,233 And I said, "No." 308 00:19:28,626 --> 00:19:30,712 We served multiple search warrants 309 00:19:30,795 --> 00:19:33,214 on people and people's property, 310 00:19:33,297 --> 00:19:35,591 and nothing came back to establish probable cause 311 00:19:35,674 --> 00:19:36,718 on those people. 312 00:19:36,801 --> 00:19:39,053 The only person that we established 313 00:19:39,136 --> 00:19:41,639 probable cause to make an arrest on 314 00:19:41,722 --> 00:19:43,182 was Richard Allen. 315 00:19:43,265 --> 00:19:45,351 I was just in disbelief. 316 00:19:45,434 --> 00:19:47,854 I contacted lawyers immediately. 317 00:19:53,984 --> 00:19:55,278 My name is Andy Baldwin. 318 00:19:55,361 --> 00:19:57,488 I am a criminal defense trial attorney. 319 00:19:57,571 --> 00:20:00,450 I've been practicing over 30 years now. 320 00:20:00,533 --> 00:20:03,119 I've been practicing law for about 30 years. 321 00:20:03,202 --> 00:20:04,871 Almost 25 years. 322 00:20:04,954 --> 00:20:06,414 I'm having flashbacks here. 323 00:20:06,497 --> 00:20:08,249 I got involved in the Delphi case 324 00:20:08,332 --> 00:20:10,710 in November of 2022. 325 00:20:10,793 --> 00:20:14,464 Within days of being hired, we went and saw Rick. 326 00:20:14,547 --> 00:20:16,382 The first time we met with Rick 327 00:20:16,465 --> 00:20:19,802 was at Westville Correctional Facility. 328 00:20:19,885 --> 00:20:22,805 We sat down, and we didn't know anything, 329 00:20:22,888 --> 00:20:24,682 so we're just trying to get to know the guy. 330 00:20:24,765 --> 00:20:27,060 His head was essentially spinning. 331 00:20:27,143 --> 00:20:28,770 You know, he was confused. 332 00:20:28,853 --> 00:20:31,481 He didn't really know how he landed where he landed. 333 00:20:31,564 --> 00:20:33,649 He's like, "I don't know why I'm here. 334 00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:35,443 I didn't do this." 335 00:20:35,526 --> 00:20:36,736 Brad and I... 336 00:20:36,819 --> 00:20:38,446 I remember, we went out into the parking lot, 337 00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:40,073 and we just looked at each other 338 00:20:40,156 --> 00:20:42,241 and were like, holy crap, this guy's innocent. 339 00:20:42,324 --> 00:20:44,661 And now we really have our work ahead of us. 340 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,208 And by the way, it wasn't a tip Kathy Shank found. 341 00:20:50,291 --> 00:20:52,835 It was Richard Allen coming forward 342 00:20:52,918 --> 00:20:55,505 and trying to help find the killer. 343 00:20:55,588 --> 00:20:57,465 They had thousands of tips. 344 00:20:57,548 --> 00:20:59,467 Not one of them was about Richard Allen, 345 00:20:59,550 --> 00:21:00,968 not one of them. 346 00:21:01,051 --> 00:21:02,553 The way I understand this is, that information... 347 00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:05,056 What we learned early on about the case 348 00:21:05,139 --> 00:21:07,141 was what the whole world was learning, 349 00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:10,269 and that was, Rick Allen became a suspect overnight, 350 00:21:10,352 --> 00:21:12,605 and then he was arrested really shortly after that, 351 00:21:12,688 --> 00:21:14,482 within weeks. 352 00:21:14,565 --> 00:21:16,859 We had a probable-cause affidavit, 353 00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:18,653 and that was four or five pages. 354 00:21:18,736 --> 00:21:20,988 And, you know, that had the basic facts in it 355 00:21:21,071 --> 00:21:22,490 but not really a lot of detail. 356 00:21:22,573 --> 00:21:24,158 Richard Allen has no criminal history. 357 00:21:24,241 --> 00:21:26,619 Richard Allen has never been in trouble before. 358 00:21:26,702 --> 00:21:29,372 We were trying to make sense of how in the world 359 00:21:29,455 --> 00:21:32,709 Richard Allen was accused of a crime that he didn't commit. 360 00:21:35,878 --> 00:21:38,214 Because of the volume of discovery 361 00:21:38,297 --> 00:21:41,634 that had been created over the five-year-long investigation, 362 00:21:41,717 --> 00:21:44,679 we retrieved a box that had a bunch of hard drives in it, 363 00:21:44,762 --> 00:21:47,890 and maybe there was 18 to 20 or more 364 00:21:47,973 --> 00:21:49,892 of these hard drives. 365 00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:51,727 We later learned that it was, like, 366 00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:54,355 20 terabytes of information. 367 00:21:54,438 --> 00:21:57,316 You're talking about 4 million pieces of paper. 368 00:21:57,399 --> 00:22:01,154 As it turns out, there were dozens of suspects, 369 00:22:01,237 --> 00:22:03,531 at least 10 of which were viable. 370 00:22:03,614 --> 00:22:05,700 And the idea that there were other suspects 371 00:22:05,783 --> 00:22:07,743 that were not part of the probable-cause affidavit 372 00:22:07,826 --> 00:22:10,204 was kind of shocking. 373 00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:12,623 Like, Ron Logan, another suspect 374 00:22:12,706 --> 00:22:15,918 who was one of the top suspects in the case 375 00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:18,045 and could have been at that crime scene 376 00:22:18,128 --> 00:22:19,505 on that day. 377 00:22:31,225 --> 00:22:36,063 The bodies of two girls were found 378 00:22:36,146 --> 00:22:39,484 on Ron Logan's property. 379 00:22:39,567 --> 00:22:41,777 He was one of the first people 380 00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:44,363 that we looked at. 381 00:22:44,446 --> 00:22:46,657 There's one thing that's true. 382 00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:48,576 If a dead body is found in your property, 383 00:22:48,659 --> 00:22:50,203 someone's obviously been murdered, 384 00:22:50,286 --> 00:22:51,996 police are going to look at you. 385 00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:54,999 Ron Logan was known to law enforcement 386 00:22:55,082 --> 00:22:57,376 for problems with drinking and driving. 387 00:23:02,172 --> 00:23:04,634 The day after the girls were found, 388 00:23:04,717 --> 00:23:07,052 I was driving in the area. 389 00:23:08,846 --> 00:23:11,557 And the Indianapolis TV stations were interviewing 390 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,309 Ron Logan just before I got there. 391 00:23:13,392 --> 00:23:15,102 The area that they were in 392 00:23:15,185 --> 00:23:16,521 is very hard to get to. 393 00:23:16,604 --> 00:23:19,440 I mean, you can't get there unless you walk there. 394 00:23:19,523 --> 00:23:21,817 I mean, so... 395 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:24,153 somebody had to be walking with them or something. 396 00:23:24,236 --> 00:23:27,615 He didn't seem bothered by it, undone by it, 397 00:23:27,698 --> 00:23:29,158 unnerved by it. 398 00:23:29,241 --> 00:23:33,704 Ron Logan is understandably suspect number one. 399 00:23:33,787 --> 00:23:37,124 We learned on February 13, 2017, 400 00:23:37,207 --> 00:23:40,419 Ron Logan had taken trash to the transfer station 401 00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:42,380 just outside of Delphi. 402 00:23:42,463 --> 00:23:46,801 That was about approximately 11:53 a.m., 403 00:23:46,884 --> 00:23:49,470 and he was there till about 11:58. 404 00:23:51,305 --> 00:23:55,142 What was strange about it was, he had no license. 405 00:23:57,895 --> 00:24:00,147 So he wasn't supposed to be driving. 406 00:24:02,149 --> 00:24:05,653 On February 17th, Ron Logan met with police. 407 00:24:05,736 --> 00:24:07,280 He told them his alibi... 408 00:24:07,363 --> 00:24:09,865 that his cousin had picked him up 409 00:24:09,948 --> 00:24:12,076 and took him to the fish store 410 00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:14,287 so that he could purchase fish. 411 00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:18,374 He told police that he was nowhere near the crime scene 412 00:24:18,457 --> 00:24:21,127 when the murders took place. 413 00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:24,589 So we went and talked to Ron Logan's cousin. 414 00:24:24,672 --> 00:24:26,841 And for a long time, he kept saying, 415 00:24:26,924 --> 00:24:29,176 yes, I picked him up from his house. 416 00:24:29,259 --> 00:24:31,637 We went to Lafayette to the fish store. 417 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,182 And I said, look, we're just trying to figure out 418 00:24:35,265 --> 00:24:37,268 who killed these beautiful little girls. 419 00:24:37,351 --> 00:24:39,604 His whole face just changed. 420 00:24:39,687 --> 00:24:41,314 You could tell it affected him. 421 00:24:41,397 --> 00:24:44,483 And I said, "You lied for Ron, didn't you?" 422 00:24:44,566 --> 00:24:46,652 And he said, "Yes." 423 00:24:50,072 --> 00:24:51,616 So law enforcement, of course, 424 00:24:51,699 --> 00:24:55,036 gets a search warrant for Ron Logan's house. 425 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,787 More than a dozen officers 426 00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:58,706 from local, state, and federal agencies 427 00:24:58,789 --> 00:25:00,499 are serving a search warrant right now 428 00:25:00,582 --> 00:25:03,044 on that home right there... you can see that white house. 429 00:25:03,127 --> 00:25:05,296 They found some odd things in the house. 430 00:25:05,379 --> 00:25:07,548 A large amount of guns and knives 431 00:25:07,631 --> 00:25:10,176 were located in his residence. 432 00:25:10,259 --> 00:25:11,719 Those guns filled the back 433 00:25:11,802 --> 00:25:13,846 of our Sheriff's Department minivan 434 00:25:13,929 --> 00:25:17,808 from the floor to the ceiling, plus the front seat. 435 00:25:17,891 --> 00:25:20,227 Now, the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German 436 00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:23,064 were found just a short walk through those woods. 437 00:25:23,147 --> 00:25:24,774 They found Abby and Libby's names 438 00:25:24,857 --> 00:25:28,361 on a calendar with the date that they were found. 439 00:25:28,444 --> 00:25:31,280 The FBI says that his phone was near the crime scene 440 00:25:31,363 --> 00:25:32,573 and bridge at 2:09, 441 00:25:32,656 --> 00:25:35,493 which is four minutes before Libby's famous video. 442 00:25:38,245 --> 00:25:41,749 Later that evening, at 10:16, 443 00:25:41,832 --> 00:25:44,919 Ron Logan received a text message that showed him 444 00:25:45,002 --> 00:25:48,506 in close proximity to where the girls' bodies were found. 445 00:25:53,761 --> 00:25:57,723 It seemed like things just kept piling up. 446 00:25:57,806 --> 00:25:59,350 Ron Logan did have a history 447 00:25:59,433 --> 00:26:01,018 of being violent with women. 448 00:26:01,101 --> 00:26:03,062 Even Ron Logan's girlfriend has said, 449 00:26:03,145 --> 00:26:04,563 that's the guy. 450 00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:07,650 She's out there on, you know, different media sources saying, 451 00:26:07,733 --> 00:26:09,944 "The guy I saw walking on the bridge was Ron Logan." 452 00:26:10,027 --> 00:26:11,737 When you saw the video, 453 00:26:11,820 --> 00:26:14,573 heard about "bridge guy," got that sinking feeling 454 00:26:14,656 --> 00:26:18,285 that "bridge guy" was your ex-boyfriend, Ron Logan, 455 00:26:18,368 --> 00:26:19,995 did you tell the police? 456 00:26:20,078 --> 00:26:21,789 I did. I called in. 457 00:26:21,872 --> 00:26:25,167 I called in three or four times, actually. 458 00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:27,753 We looked into it, searched his house, 459 00:26:27,836 --> 00:26:30,339 several search warrants on him and his property, 460 00:26:30,422 --> 00:26:33,134 and found no evidence connecting him 461 00:26:33,217 --> 00:26:35,260 to the crime scene or the crimes. 462 00:26:36,845 --> 00:26:39,223 Investigators looked at cell phone pings, 463 00:26:39,306 --> 00:26:41,600 but there wasn't good cell phone coverage. 464 00:26:41,683 --> 00:26:43,936 So, when you have spotty cell phone coverage, 465 00:26:44,019 --> 00:26:47,440 you can often have pings that don't quite pinpoint 466 00:26:47,523 --> 00:26:50,526 where the phone is coming from. 467 00:26:50,609 --> 00:26:53,404 When investigators dug a little bit deeper, 468 00:26:53,487 --> 00:26:55,781 they realized he lied for another reason. 469 00:26:55,864 --> 00:26:57,825 He was doing something else illegal. 470 00:26:57,908 --> 00:26:59,452 Ron Logan lied 471 00:26:59,535 --> 00:27:01,620 not because he was trying to cover up a murder, 472 00:27:01,703 --> 00:27:03,456 but because he was trying to cover up 473 00:27:03,539 --> 00:27:07,877 another crime he had committed, driving without a license. 474 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,712 Ron Logan was charged 475 00:27:09,795 --> 00:27:11,839 with driving on a suspended license, 476 00:27:11,922 --> 00:27:14,467 and he was ultimately sentenced to prison time. 477 00:27:14,550 --> 00:27:16,594 Logan has been in jail since March 13th, 478 00:27:16,677 --> 00:27:19,263 after police found out he'd violated his probation 479 00:27:19,346 --> 00:27:21,932 by driving to the dump on that February day 480 00:27:22,015 --> 00:27:24,434 and drinking at a restaurant in Americus. 481 00:27:31,024 --> 00:27:35,154 I believe that he is still a viable suspect 482 00:27:35,237 --> 00:27:37,031 as we sit here today. 483 00:27:37,114 --> 00:27:39,658 I just think that their attention 484 00:27:39,741 --> 00:27:43,204 was redirected somewhere else. 485 00:27:43,287 --> 00:27:45,873 Ron Logan wasn't the only suspect. 486 00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:48,459 Tips were flowing in from all over Delphi, 487 00:27:48,542 --> 00:27:50,628 all over the nation... 488 00:27:50,711 --> 00:27:52,838 including a known sexual predator 489 00:27:52,921 --> 00:27:55,883 who was talking to one of the victims 490 00:27:55,966 --> 00:27:57,843 close in time to the murders. 491 00:28:09,730 --> 00:28:11,315 Abby and Libby... 492 00:28:11,398 --> 00:28:13,317 they had a really nice little group of friends, 493 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,611 very sweet, very polite. 494 00:28:15,694 --> 00:28:18,531 The girls had sleepovers on different occasions 495 00:28:18,614 --> 00:28:22,284 and seemed to entertain themselves pretty well. 496 00:28:25,454 --> 00:28:28,332 It was my sleepover that we were at... 497 00:28:28,415 --> 00:28:30,459 when my sister and her friend 498 00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:32,461 were talking to someone on the Internet, 499 00:28:32,544 --> 00:28:34,922 and Liberty and I were kind of just, like, in the background, 500 00:28:35,005 --> 00:28:36,507 watching, observing. 501 00:28:36,590 --> 00:28:38,801 They thought, you know, he was fun and cool. 502 00:28:38,884 --> 00:28:40,344 And he was like, oh, I have another friend 503 00:28:40,427 --> 00:28:42,596 I think you guys would like, which was Anthony Shots. 504 00:28:45,265 --> 00:28:47,476 And so then they were, like, DM-ing him. 505 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:51,063 And he had said that he was from around here. 506 00:28:51,146 --> 00:28:54,358 And Liberty was like, "Hmm, I don't know him, 507 00:28:54,441 --> 00:28:56,569 and I know everyone around here." 508 00:28:56,652 --> 00:28:59,822 So then she was like, well, let me DM him. 509 00:28:59,905 --> 00:29:02,616 He was giving them two different answers. 510 00:29:02,699 --> 00:29:03,826 "Oh, I'm from Delphi," 511 00:29:03,909 --> 00:29:06,829 or "Oh, I'm from, like, Lafayette." 512 00:29:06,912 --> 00:29:09,790 It was just like, he didn't know where he was from. 513 00:29:09,873 --> 00:29:13,586 It started to make them question, who am I talking to? 514 00:29:21,009 --> 00:29:23,804 I wasn't aware that they were still talking. 515 00:29:26,848 --> 00:29:29,977 Libby's phone was found at the crime scene. 516 00:29:30,060 --> 00:29:33,355 We were able to get into her phone 517 00:29:33,438 --> 00:29:36,191 and discovered Libby had been speaking 518 00:29:36,274 --> 00:29:38,235 to an Anthony Shots. 519 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,618 Libby thought Anthony Shots was this young model 520 00:29:45,701 --> 00:29:48,162 shown to her by social media. 521 00:29:48,245 --> 00:29:51,749 And they were trading chats back and forth, back and forth. 522 00:29:51,832 --> 00:29:56,170 But there was no model behind Anthony Shots. 523 00:29:56,253 --> 00:29:59,548 In reality, Libby had been speaking with a person 524 00:29:59,631 --> 00:30:01,216 by the name of Kegan Kline. 525 00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:07,473 Kegan Kline was in his 20s, unemployed, 526 00:30:07,556 --> 00:30:08,933 and living at his dad's house 527 00:30:09,016 --> 00:30:11,852 approximately 30 to 40 minutes from Delphi. 528 00:30:11,935 --> 00:30:15,356 He liked to catfish girls for nude pictures 529 00:30:15,439 --> 00:30:16,774 and anything else 530 00:30:16,857 --> 00:30:19,317 that he thought he could obtain from them. 531 00:30:22,904 --> 00:30:25,199 They took basically every electronic device I had 532 00:30:25,282 --> 00:30:26,700 so they could go through it, 533 00:30:26,783 --> 00:30:28,452 just in case there was anything on it 534 00:30:28,535 --> 00:30:31,830 from the sleepover that took place. 535 00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:34,249 Police discovered that he chatted 536 00:30:34,332 --> 00:30:36,377 the night before the murders with Libby. 537 00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:38,003 And those communications 538 00:30:38,086 --> 00:30:41,632 appeared to be sexually motivated. 539 00:30:41,715 --> 00:30:43,801 Police raided Kegan Kline's house 540 00:30:43,884 --> 00:30:45,761 on February 25, 2017. 541 00:30:45,844 --> 00:30:47,429 They found a bunch of his phones, 542 00:30:47,512 --> 00:30:49,765 including over 100 videos and photos 543 00:30:49,848 --> 00:30:51,725 of naked underage girls. 544 00:30:53,602 --> 00:30:55,020 Do you think it could have been Kegan? 545 00:30:55,103 --> 00:30:57,231 Do you think maybe they were, perhaps, 546 00:30:57,314 --> 00:31:01,068 wanting to meet Kegan or a cute boy 547 00:31:01,151 --> 00:31:02,611 at the trail or... 548 00:31:02,694 --> 00:31:05,197 I don't think Kegan was out there. 549 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,033 I mean, evidence indicates that he was not. 550 00:31:13,622 --> 00:31:16,875 The wild thing for a lot of people about Kegan Kline... 551 00:31:16,958 --> 00:31:19,044 they find this material in 2017. 552 00:31:19,127 --> 00:31:21,255 He's not charged till 2020, 553 00:31:21,338 --> 00:31:23,382 when he was charged with 30 felonies. 554 00:31:23,465 --> 00:31:25,676 Kegan Kline has been sentenced 555 00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:27,177 to 40 years in prison 556 00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:29,221 on charges of child exploitation 557 00:31:29,304 --> 00:31:31,015 and child pornography. 558 00:31:31,098 --> 00:31:33,642 They're able to declare that he is not related 559 00:31:33,725 --> 00:31:35,728 to the homicides whatsoever. 560 00:31:35,811 --> 00:31:38,522 Just because he was talking to the girls the night before 561 00:31:38,605 --> 00:31:40,232 doesn't make him a killer. 562 00:31:40,315 --> 00:31:41,734 Looking into Kegan, 563 00:31:41,817 --> 00:31:44,862 I spent a few hundred hours making a very long video. 564 00:31:44,945 --> 00:31:48,073 As I investigated him... quote, unquote... 565 00:31:48,156 --> 00:31:50,909 I sent him a letter, and he agreed to talk to me. 566 00:31:50,992 --> 00:31:54,621 And I talked to him for, like, 14 minutes. 567 00:32:23,942 --> 00:32:28,030 Police learned, his phone was pinging in his home in Peru 568 00:32:28,113 --> 00:32:30,282 nowhere near Delphi that day. 569 00:32:30,365 --> 00:32:32,785 They didn't find any real solid evidence 570 00:32:32,868 --> 00:32:34,787 that he had anything to do 571 00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:37,790 with the murders of Abby and Libby. 572 00:32:37,873 --> 00:32:39,958 Anytime there was a search warrant served 573 00:32:40,041 --> 00:32:42,044 was a hopeful moment for the community, 574 00:32:42,127 --> 00:32:43,462 but there were lots of those. 575 00:32:43,545 --> 00:32:46,548 Early on, those hopeful moments became fewer and fewer 576 00:32:46,631 --> 00:32:49,551 as the weeks wore on and turned into months, 577 00:32:49,634 --> 00:32:51,136 turned into years. 578 00:32:51,219 --> 00:32:52,763 There was a lot working against us. 579 00:32:52,846 --> 00:32:55,557 A crime of this type, with the publicity, 580 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,476 the seriousness of it, 581 00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:00,646 it just was beyond anything we had ever had happen 582 00:33:00,729 --> 00:33:01,772 in this county, 583 00:33:01,855 --> 00:33:03,690 let alone in the state of Indiana. 584 00:33:03,773 --> 00:33:07,152 It's very difficult to enumerate all of the issues 585 00:33:07,235 --> 00:33:08,403 involving law enforcement. 586 00:33:08,486 --> 00:33:10,906 70 days of interviews were lost, 587 00:33:10,989 --> 00:33:12,825 key interviews. 588 00:33:12,908 --> 00:33:15,619 We did not intentionally erase 589 00:33:15,702 --> 00:33:19,665 or lose any audio/videotaped statements. 590 00:33:19,748 --> 00:33:23,085 I mean, I thought we checked the recording system. 591 00:33:23,168 --> 00:33:26,380 Technology's great when it works, but it just happened. 592 00:33:26,463 --> 00:33:30,092 And it's unfortunate, but it happens in every investigation. 593 00:33:30,175 --> 00:33:32,219 They didn't collect the sticks immediately, 594 00:33:32,302 --> 00:33:33,387 which were on the girls. 595 00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:35,097 And what could have been on those sticks? 596 00:33:35,180 --> 00:33:37,599 DNA, hair, fiber, whatever. 597 00:33:37,682 --> 00:33:40,060 We don't know because they remained out there. 598 00:33:40,143 --> 00:33:42,229 They just didn't have a handle on the complexity 599 00:33:42,312 --> 00:33:44,314 and the scope of the investigation. 600 00:33:44,397 --> 00:33:47,234 And then you invite the public into that investigation, 601 00:33:47,317 --> 00:33:48,569 which they did. 602 00:33:48,652 --> 00:33:50,237 There were thousands of tips. 603 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,030 They couldn't manage that. 604 00:33:52,113 --> 00:33:54,158 There was too much information, 605 00:33:54,241 --> 00:33:56,034 and it wasn't organized. 606 00:33:56,117 --> 00:33:59,454 And it just made for a complete mess 607 00:33:59,537 --> 00:34:01,081 of an investigation. 608 00:34:01,164 --> 00:34:03,584 None of the errors or technical difficulties 609 00:34:03,667 --> 00:34:06,670 that we had were intentional. 610 00:34:06,753 --> 00:34:09,423 So I question everything that those guys did. 611 00:34:09,506 --> 00:34:12,342 But, meanwhile, Richard is in this prison 612 00:34:12,425 --> 00:34:14,219 up in northern Indiana, 613 00:34:14,302 --> 00:34:16,430 and he just started to deteriorate. 614 00:34:16,513 --> 00:34:18,015 He was in a bad way. 615 00:34:18,098 --> 00:34:21,101 The lawyers were able to get me in there to see him, 616 00:34:21,184 --> 00:34:24,313 probably six months into him being arrested. 617 00:34:24,396 --> 00:34:28,483 Ricky looked like a little old man. 618 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,447 He was like a zombie. 619 00:34:33,530 --> 00:34:35,574 I was scared... 620 00:34:35,657 --> 00:34:38,785 because he was saying all kinds of weird things. 621 00:35:33,006 --> 00:35:36,801 He sounded like a robot, and I said, "No, you didn't." 622 00:35:38,178 --> 00:35:40,096 I said, "They're messing with you in there." 623 00:36:13,922 --> 00:36:18,343 The first time I became aware of Rick's confessions 624 00:36:18,426 --> 00:36:20,762 was about 6:00 in the morning. 625 00:36:20,845 --> 00:36:23,557 As I was traveling to work, 626 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,767 I received a phone call from Kathy Allen, 627 00:36:25,850 --> 00:36:28,061 and Kathy was hysterical. 628 00:36:31,147 --> 00:36:33,900 In June 2023, they release some court records, 629 00:36:33,983 --> 00:36:37,112 which revealed that he started confessing to his family. 630 00:36:37,195 --> 00:36:39,322 And people online were shocked. 631 00:36:41,074 --> 00:36:42,617 It definitely seemed like people 632 00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:44,036 who thought he was guilty... 633 00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,330 they heard that he was confessing, and they said, 634 00:36:46,413 --> 00:36:48,749 okay, obviously, he's guilty... he's confessing. 635 00:36:48,832 --> 00:36:50,584 But other people who think he's innocent said, 636 00:36:50,667 --> 00:36:52,377 well, he has mental issues. 637 00:36:52,460 --> 00:36:54,379 When I first met Richard Allen, 638 00:36:54,462 --> 00:36:56,757 he was generally stable, 639 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,010 but his deterioration was rapid. 640 00:37:00,093 --> 00:37:02,387 Richard Allen was in solitary confinement 641 00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:05,474 beginning about November 5, 2022. 642 00:37:05,557 --> 00:37:09,394 And these incriminating statements, if you will, 643 00:37:09,477 --> 00:37:13,315 started in April, so five or six months. 644 00:37:13,398 --> 00:37:15,651 His mental health absolutely plummeted 645 00:37:15,734 --> 00:37:17,903 during that time period. 646 00:37:17,986 --> 00:37:21,198 The old, creaking chair. 647 00:37:21,281 --> 00:37:25,327 I was asked by the Human Rights Watch... 648 00:37:25,410 --> 00:37:28,872 to tour Westville supermax prison. 649 00:37:30,331 --> 00:37:32,918 We went, and we looked, and we were horrified 650 00:37:33,001 --> 00:37:35,128 by what we saw. 651 00:37:35,211 --> 00:37:38,757 The cells were extremely austere. 652 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,803 There is no real window. 653 00:37:42,886 --> 00:37:46,973 There's a deafening silence in the cell. 654 00:37:47,056 --> 00:37:49,685 In the United Nations standards, 655 00:37:49,768 --> 00:37:52,312 more than 15 days of solitary confinement 656 00:37:52,395 --> 00:37:55,524 is a human-rights abuse or torture. 657 00:37:55,607 --> 00:37:56,900 Richard Allen was in there 658 00:37:56,983 --> 00:37:59,778 for 12, almost 13 months in solitary confinement. 659 00:37:59,861 --> 00:38:02,322 Some people break down in a day, 660 00:38:02,405 --> 00:38:04,074 some people in a few weeks. 661 00:38:04,157 --> 00:38:06,201 Most people within a month or two 662 00:38:06,284 --> 00:38:09,121 are going to have very serious mental problems. 663 00:38:09,204 --> 00:38:11,915 13 months is an extraordinarily long time 664 00:38:11,998 --> 00:38:14,126 in solitary confinement. 665 00:38:14,209 --> 00:38:16,253 I mean, 13 months is a long time, 666 00:38:16,336 --> 00:38:17,921 but guys do it for 30 years, too. 667 00:38:18,004 --> 00:38:20,882 You can take a seat. 668 00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:27,472 I was former warden, 669 00:38:27,555 --> 00:38:29,725 Westville Correctional Facility. 670 00:38:29,808 --> 00:38:33,520 Westville houses about 3,200 incarcerated individuals, 671 00:38:33,603 --> 00:38:37,273 from low to maximum security. 672 00:38:38,816 --> 00:38:40,986 It's not a bed-and-breakfast. 673 00:38:41,069 --> 00:38:43,405 He got his rec time every day, if he choose. 674 00:38:43,488 --> 00:38:44,781 He got showers every day. 675 00:38:44,864 --> 00:38:46,741 He saw mental health every day. 676 00:38:46,824 --> 00:38:49,786 He had more contact than most. 677 00:38:49,869 --> 00:38:51,538 Was there a camera in his cell? Yeah. 678 00:38:51,621 --> 00:38:54,541 You know, what caused that? His actions. 679 00:38:54,624 --> 00:38:56,376 A lot of times when he went out, 680 00:38:56,459 --> 00:38:58,753 he would be in a ballistic vest for his protection. 681 00:38:58,836 --> 00:39:01,339 Handcuffs, leg irons, and restraint chain... 682 00:39:01,422 --> 00:39:03,717 the officer in the back will hold the leash 683 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,927 in case he pulls away. 684 00:39:06,010 --> 00:39:07,763 Why the confessions? 685 00:39:07,846 --> 00:39:12,058 That's a question for Richard, but he did it several times. 686 00:39:12,141 --> 00:39:13,518 In the legal system, 687 00:39:13,601 --> 00:39:15,520 the fact that they said something strange 688 00:39:15,603 --> 00:39:17,230 is held against them. 689 00:39:17,313 --> 00:39:20,567 But in the psychiatric world, we are very skeptical 690 00:39:20,650 --> 00:39:22,777 about comments coming from someone 691 00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:25,154 who's in the midst of a mental-health crisis. 692 00:39:26,864 --> 00:39:28,783 Do I think his conditions of confinement 693 00:39:28,866 --> 00:39:30,911 were abusive? No. 694 00:39:30,994 --> 00:39:32,454 Do I think they were ideal? 695 00:39:32,537 --> 00:39:34,664 It's not a Marriott. It's what the judge ordered. 696 00:39:34,747 --> 00:39:36,666 He was kept in a cell. 697 00:39:36,749 --> 00:39:38,752 Mostly, it was for his protection. 698 00:39:38,835 --> 00:39:41,963 His crimes were known to the inmate population. 699 00:39:44,048 --> 00:39:48,637 I don't know how you can have justice with injustice. 700 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:52,182 These girls deserve justice. 701 00:39:52,265 --> 00:39:53,767 They... 702 00:39:53,850 --> 00:39:57,979 The right person or persons... 703 00:39:58,062 --> 00:40:00,232 need to be found, 704 00:40:00,315 --> 00:40:03,819 instead of just going with... 705 00:40:03,902 --> 00:40:06,238 what you believe. 706 00:40:06,321 --> 00:40:08,406 I believe in a God 707 00:40:08,489 --> 00:40:11,493 of justice and righteousness. 708 00:40:11,576 --> 00:40:15,038 Today I believe that same God has provided us 709 00:40:15,121 --> 00:40:17,707 with justice for Abby and Libby. 710 00:40:17,790 --> 00:40:19,084 I asked them. 711 00:40:19,167 --> 00:40:22,963 I said, "Do you have enough evidence to convict him? 712 00:40:23,046 --> 00:40:25,382 If you were sitting in our shoes, 713 00:40:25,465 --> 00:40:28,802 would you be okay with what you have?" 714 00:40:28,885 --> 00:40:30,804 And they said yes. 715 00:40:30,887 --> 00:40:34,182 We're representing a man that we felt was innocent. 716 00:40:34,265 --> 00:40:36,685 Now we really have our work ahead of us. 717 00:40:36,768 --> 00:40:38,812 Going through the mounds and mounds of evidence 718 00:40:38,895 --> 00:40:40,772 morning and noon and night, 719 00:40:40,855 --> 00:40:42,857 I was sitting at my desk back here 720 00:40:42,940 --> 00:40:45,652 on, like, a Saturday morning, I remember. 721 00:40:45,735 --> 00:40:49,155 And that's when I stumbled upon a piece of paper. 722 00:40:50,823 --> 00:40:52,784 And holy cow. 723 00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:56,079 My mind exploded. 724 00:40:56,162 --> 00:40:59,583 Like, wow, there's evidence here that somebody else 725 00:40:59,666 --> 00:41:01,835 might have committed the crime. 726 00:41:01,918 --> 00:41:04,713 There were hallmarks at the crime scene 727 00:41:04,796 --> 00:41:08,842 that suggested that there was some ritualistic activity... 728 00:41:08,925 --> 00:41:12,637 the position of the girls' bodies at the scene, 729 00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:16,057 these sticks that were clearly placed on the girls, 730 00:41:16,140 --> 00:41:17,434 the blood spatter 731 00:41:17,517 --> 00:41:20,020 that seemed to be in the form of a letter F. 732 00:41:20,103 --> 00:41:22,439 The defense was hoping that they could get 733 00:41:22,522 --> 00:41:26,693 those outrageous conspiracy theories out there, 734 00:41:26,776 --> 00:41:29,487 and I thought that was wrong. 735 00:41:29,570 --> 00:41:31,865 If you follow the evidence, 736 00:41:31,948 --> 00:41:34,743 that's where it leads you. 737 00:41:34,826 --> 00:41:38,371 You don't kill those girls the way you do 738 00:41:38,454 --> 00:41:40,999 and leave them that way without it meaning something. 739 00:41:41,082 --> 00:41:42,500 The truth's going to come out. 740 00:41:42,583 --> 00:41:45,128 You can't hide the truth forever. 740 00:41:46,305 --> 00:42:46,781